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Old December 8th, 2017, 09:58 PM   #961
Suburbanist
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Will this new stretch and the new timetable significantly weaken air traffic TXL/SFX-MUC?
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Old December 9th, 2017, 12:12 AM   #962
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I think so...Air Berlin went bankrupt,Lufthansa is expensive....I think that it will have the same effect as between Paris and Lyon in France where the air traffic fell dramaticaly with the opening of the TGV.DieDeutsche Bahn has done a wonderfull job and I hope that it will be a succes...They deserve it!
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Old December 9th, 2017, 09:35 AM   #963
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This cannot be compared to TGV lines, especially Paris-Lyon.
Paris-Lyon is 470 km in less than 2 hours.
Paris-Marseille is 775 km in less than 3 1/2 hours.
(distance according to car route calculators)

By contrast,
Berlin-Munich is 585 km in 5, 4 1/2 or rarely (only 3 times daily) 4 hours. Reasons for the lower speed are
- lower design speed on some sections of the line (200 or 250 kmh or less)
- route detour through Erfurt, which is useful for Berlin-Frankfurt, but is not the most direct route for Berlin-Munich
- use of slower ICE T trains, capable of only 230 kmh, on all but the three sprinter (4 hour) connections, as DB has abandoned the aim to stock up on trains capable of 300 kmh

Long story, but no train is capable of running significantly under 4 hours center to center, and very few even do that. Some analysts believe that for business travelers, who are plenty on the Munich-Berlin flights, and who are not price sensitive and who have no particular preference for a particular transport mode, 4 hours is the critical threshold at which travelers will switch from rail to air.

Nonetheless, I hope this will still put a significant dent into the airline market on this line, but I believe it will not come near finishing it, as SNCF has practically on the two lines mentioned above. We could now go into our standard discussion whether high speed makes sense at all in Germany, but Suburbanist's question was rather specific, so I would ask everyone to refrain from going into a general debate.
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Old December 9th, 2017, 01:33 PM   #964
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It will be 147 km/h on average, although I had a longer distance between Berlin and Munich, undoubtedly before the HSR.

All that is true, it can not be compared.

Down next to Total on a dark blue background the km of HSR for more than 250 km/h according to my own accounts, "315" are the km of HSR for 200/245 km/h according to the UIC and, on a light blue background, the km of HSR according to the UIC.

This table is the result of my own data, any type of correction is appreciated.
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Old December 9th, 2017, 03:58 PM   #965
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A Premiere with a breakdown



The high-speed line Berlin-Munich is opened. The railway celebrated the opening of the route with special guests and special trips. On the way back on Saturday, guests of honor and journalists needed patience: Because of a breakdown, an ICE train had stopped.

Only shortly after the opening of the new ICE line between Berlin and Munich, there was a disruption in one of the trains. On the way back to Munich, the ICE had to stop several times with around 200 guests of honor and journalists on board. The trip took about 6 hours, just under two hours longer than planned - and thus about as long as the fast trains between Berlin and Munich before the timetable change.

Almost two hours late
The railway authority is working hard to determine the reasons for the breakdown, said a spokesman in Berlin. The train with the party guests should have arrived at 11.15 pm in Munich. It finally arrived on Saturday morning at 1:25 clock at the Central Station in Munich. In social networks such as Twitter, the train had to endure malice and ridicule in the face of the mishap.
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Old December 9th, 2017, 04:21 PM   #966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
It will be 147 km/h on average, although I had a longer distance between Berlin and Munich, undoubtedly before the HSR.

This table is the result of my own data, any type of correction is appreciated.
where did you find the 1:35 für hannover-würzburg? fastest db connections i get are 2:02 (which is a shame, considering that you have a complete HSR between them..)
contrasting, berlin-hannover is 1:35, not 2:02 as in your graphic. maybe you mixed them both up?

fastest berlin-hamburg i get at bahn.de is 1:43; fastest frankfurt central - cologne central is 1:06

---

whats the fastest nonstop-passthrough speed for erfurt (100kmh?), fürth, halle, erlangen, bitterfeld and wittenberg?
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Old December 10th, 2017, 03:55 PM   #967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derUlukai View Post
where did you find the 1:35 für hannover-würzburg? fastest db connections i get are 2:02 (which is a shame, considering that you have a complete HSR between them..)
contrasting, berlin-hannover is 1:35, not 2:02 as in your graphic. maybe you mixed them both up?

fastest berlin-hamburg i get at bahn.de is 1:43; fastest frankfurt central - cologne central is 1:06

---

whats the fastest nonstop-passthrough speed for erfurt (100kmh?), fürth, halle, erlangen, bitterfeld and wittenberg?
Wittenberg 160 km/h (ca. 7 km Section including Elbe river bridge)
Bitterfeld 200 km/h
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Old December 10th, 2017, 07:58 PM   #968
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What I still haven't understood is how far in the process of getting built the remaining, uncompleted sections of the full HSL Munich - Halle are. I'm referring to the Bamberg - Nürnberg and Petershausen - Ingolstadt sections, and eventual external fast bypasses of Ingolstadt, Nürnberg and Erfurt for non-stopping trains.

The Furth freight bypass line seems stuck, for example, and the Bamberg - Nürnberg section too due to local politics.
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Old December 11th, 2017, 12:20 AM   #969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by touya View Post
What I still haven't understood is how far in the process of getting built the remaining, uncompleted sections of the full HSL Munich - Halle are. I'm referring to the Bamberg - Nürnberg and Petershausen - Ingolstadt sections, and eventual external fast bypasses of Ingolstadt, Nürnberg and Erfurt for non-stopping trains.

The Furth freight bypass line seems stuck, for example, and the Bamberg - Nürnberg section too due to local politics.
this is germany, there are NO (or very less) non-stopping trains, federal structure and every local region fights that every ICE have to stop at their main stations

and the freight bypass is the next example, you need more capacity, as other option it would have been possible to build a ICE tunnel and make a small tunnel station under Nurnberg main station that ICE can pass Nurnberg very fast, would free capacity on the old tracks, during night times you still can use it for freight trains, no decision to build a freight tunnel only

additional next german regional story, because of history the decison to go via Erfurt was very expensive and the track is longer, a direct approach Nurnberg-Leipzig would have been cheaper, combined with the north-south city tunnel in leipzig it would have been faster additional
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Old December 11th, 2017, 10:51 AM   #970
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That there are not many non-stopping trains in Germany is due to DB's commercial practice and/or (very likely) some pressure from the government or grandfathered "handshake agreements" to provide for at least a minimum service to every city on the line.

From December 2020 there will be other 25 or so railway undertakings able to run trains in Germany, due to the 4RP liberalization. These other RUs won't feel the same urge to serve Ingolstadt, Bamberg, Erfurt, Halle and probably not even Leipzig and Nürnberg.

For example, I know at least one RU, Trenitalia, whose marketing is all about advertising short travel times between terminal stations, so and I don't find hard to imagine a service made of ONLY fast Freccia trains between Munich and Berlin if they decide to enter that axis (just consider that it minimizes the rolling stock they need).

I'm somewhat amazed to see so how many people in this forum do not consider this.

Quote:
and the freight bypass is the next example, you need more capacity, as other option it would have been possible to build a ICE tunnel and make a small tunnel station under Nurnberg main station that ICE can pass Nurnberg very fast, would free capacity on the old tracks, during night times you still can use it for freight trains, no decision to build a freight tunnel only
I was actually wondering if we will ever see either a ICE bypass tunnel with a stop at Nurnberg airport (would same much time) or a more direct route Feucht - Forchheim...
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Old December 11th, 2017, 12:07 PM   #971
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Interestingly, in Ittaly it is the open access high speed operator ths t has more stopping services as a % of total operator services in the main Italian high speed routes. Trenitslia flooded the market with non stop <3h Milano Centrale - Roma Termini route and decimate what was one of the busiest air shuttles in Europe. Same could happen in Germany.
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Old December 11th, 2017, 12:40 PM   #972
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And Trenitalia in Italy still suffers from "some pressure from the government or grandfathered handshake agreements to provide for at least a minimum service to every city on the line" much like in DB in Germany. But Trenitalia does won't suffer from it when running trains in Germany...

Moreover the provisions in the 4RP for the incumbent to prevent competitors to serve stations where they already provide subsidized service also work in favor of non-stopping trains: newcomers may simply decide to give up serving smaller cities and focus on big ones from start, to prevent those provisions to be invoked by the incumbent and ultimately risk being prevented doing their non-stop service altogether.
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Old December 11th, 2017, 02:32 PM   #973
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In any case, how long did it take to travel from Berlin (don't know which station) to München Hbf after DB took over the lines in the East in the early 1990s? 8h?
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Old December 11th, 2017, 04:41 PM   #974
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Does anyone know the current status of the modernization works for the line between Munich and Lindau? Is it possible to see any time in the next years ICE schedules between Zurich and Berlin?
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Old December 11th, 2017, 09:29 PM   #975
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Quote:
Originally Posted by touya View Post
That there are not many non-stopping trains in Germany is due to DB's commercial practice and/or (very likely) some pressure from the government or grandfathered "handshake agreements" to provide for at least a minimum service to every city on the line.
youve are right about this - BUT: current infrastructure in germany (aka: owned and planned by db netz.. part of the integrated group.. still: paid for mostly by german taxpayers) also favors this stop-at-every-shitty-city-policy, as you have to slow down anyway every 100km or so (thats why i also asked for the maximum passthrough speeds of erfurt, fürth, halle, erlangen, bitterfeld and wittenberg (and also nürnberg and ingolstadt will require severe breakdowns). so even if another company wanted to establish nonstop-connections, travel times could not be reduced significantly below current db levels, as you would have to slow down anyway.
and even if trains would be 30mins faster on munich-berlin in total (maybe 10mins faster than db-sprinters), db would flood the market with cheap tickets on this route.

the problem gets even worse as future "highspeed"lines are planned with maximum speeds of only 250kmh - guess why? because current business practice of db fernverkehr is to run cheap trains which are not capable of going faster..
so you build a fu..ing expansive infrastructure for the next couple of hundred years that doesn't get at as efficient as it could be, as it is tailored to one (monopoly..) train-operator and its penny pinching business strategy.

meanwhile, top 5 frankfurt-airport top-destinations by local demand are:
berlin, london, hamburg, munich, paris.

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