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Old March 28th, 2008, 02:04 AM   #81
Tyron
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show is over

....show is over...will finally leave this country...nothing doing...what a shame!

bye bye germany
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Old March 28th, 2008, 03:28 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyron View Post
....show is over...will finally leave this country...nothing doing...what a shame!

bye bye germany
Because one purely prestige project was cancelled? I agree that it's a shame, but at least you guys have a rail link to your airport in the form of the S-bahn - most other countries only have buses! Auckland (NZ) still doesn't have an airport link and has a city population of 1.4 million! It costs $90 to get a taxi from the airport to the city. Not only that but there is only one bus service and it is privately run costing you $15 to ride it and the journey takes up to 60 minutes when not in traffic - when in traffic it can take 15 minutes longer!

Count your blessings that Munich has what it does.

Last edited by Svartmetall; March 28th, 2008 at 03:40 AM.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 03:54 AM   #83
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This is just rediculous! Just sell the technology to the Chinese, I'm sick of waiting for the Germans to start showing confidence in their own technology. Now that it looks like they're not going to bother with this, at least let a country with some ambition acquire and develop the technology. Once it's in their hands the Shanghai extension and the Hangzhou line will quickly go ahead, they will get the operational expertise, costs will come down and who knows, Munich might get it's maglev after all in 20 years when the Chinese build it for them.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 04:58 AM   #84
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This is just too funny. One of the richest countries in the world cannot afford to build a maglev line using the technologies of its own domestic company.

Really shows you how utterly commercially impractical maglev is at the moment.

Germans should really be thankful that the Chinese government was gullible enough to buy their overpriced technology.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 05:12 AM   #85
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€3bn is peanuts considering that the German government has wasted €20bn and rising with its investments in US credit instruments. Bavaria alone has lost €4bn via the state owned BayernLB bank. Let's hope its a lesson for them. Instead of lending other countries money that you won't ever see again, better invest it in German infrastructure the next time.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 06:10 AM   #86
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Good decision. 3 billion EUR for an airport link is just too much.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 08:50 AM   #87
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So much for German engineering.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 09:03 AM   #88
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Oh, the irony.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 11:11 AM   #89
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Thyssen-Krupp wants to sell the maglev technology to China now.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 11:22 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C-Beam View Post
€3bn is peanuts considering that the German government has wasted €20bn and rising with its investments in US credit instruments. Bavaria alone has lost €4bn via the state owned BayernLB bank. Let's hope its a lesson for them. Instead of lending other countries money that you won't ever see again, better invest it in German infrastructure the next time.
That is macroeconomics, and has nothing to do with an overpriced €3.4 billion investment in a 37 km Maglev line. Especially when you consider that there is an S-bahn link between the city and the airport already. Travel time would be reduced from 45 minutes to 10 minutes, what's the big deal. Upgrade the S-Bahn, and you can reduce the trip with 15 minutes probably.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 01:24 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
This is just rediculous! Just sell the technology to the Chinese, I'm sick of waiting for the Germans to start showing confidence in their own technology. Now that it looks like they're not going to bother with this, at least let a country with some ambition acquire and develop the technology. Once it's in their hands the Shanghai extension and the Hangzhou line will quickly go ahead, they will get the operational expertise, costs will come down and who knows, Munich might get it's maglev after all in 20 years when the Chinese build it for them.





I totally agree....
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Old March 28th, 2008, 02:49 PM   #92
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http://www.wiesbadener-kurier.de/pol...kel_id=3218487

Translation:

Can Hesse save the Transrapid? Jörg-Uwe Hahn, head of the FDP Hesse, thinks so. Hahn demanded yesterday in the state's parliament in Wiesbaden that a study should be ordered about a link between the Frankfurt International airport and the Frankfurt-Hahn airport.

The Hesse ministry of transportartion was not available for a comment yesterday, but the idea to link the Frankfurt Intl and Frankfurt-Hahn airports is not new. Since many years there is a discussion about a high speed railway link. About 5 years ago minister president Roland Koch was supporting a plan to build a Transrapid line which was also broadly supported in parliament. Eventually the line could be extended up to Brussels and thereby link Frankfurt to the power center of the European Union....

...FDP politician Hahn urged to not abandon the plan for a German Transrapid line. Capacity restraints at the Frankfurt Intl airport could be solved by linking it to Frankfurt-Hahn he said.

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Last edited by C-Beam; March 28th, 2008 at 03:14 PM.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 03:26 PM   #93
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This is just too funny. One of the richest countries in the world cannot afford to build a maglev line using the technologies of its own domestic company.

Really shows you how utterly commercially impractical maglev is at the moment.
My thoughts exactly. It's been discussed over and over and over again on this website about how wonderful maglev is, and how it's actually cheaper or some such nonsense. Well, it's not. It's a great concept but the numbers don't add up, they never have, and slowly Siemens is beginning to realise it might not ever. Long live HSR.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 03:56 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
It's been discussed over and over and over again on this website about how wonderful maglev is, and how it's actually cheaper or some such nonsense. Well, it's not. It's a great concept but the numbers don't add up, they never have, and slowly Siemens is beginning to realise it might not ever. Long live HSR.
What a nonsense. The increase in price was not caused by the providers of the Transrapid technology (Siemens and Thyssen-Krupp stuck to their original price estimates) but by the company which was supposed to do the concrete works and drill the tunnels (Hochtief AG). Hochtief argued that worldwide increases in commodity prices made it necessary for them to increase the price tag by more than a billion.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 04:19 PM   #95
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Hochtief AG has apparently major problems with its German construction unit.

Looks like they either tried to squeeze some extra profit out of the public Transrapid project in the hope that the government wouldn't be to strict with the budget, or they just wanted to bail out and sometimes it is politically better to do that by claiming that external factors make it necessary to increase the price beyond acceptability instead of simply saying "we want to bail out for internal reasons" which might make you look as an unreliable partner and can lead to problems if you want to compete for future projects.

http://www.welt.de/welt_print/articl..._schaffen.html

Translation

Dusseldorf, March 27th...The European construction unit of Hochtief, which is fighting with high losses in Germany, is supposed to become profitable again in the medium term. Hochtief now wants to be as selective as Bilfinger Berger and decline projects which offer only low margins...
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Old March 28th, 2008, 04:32 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C-Beam View Post
Hochtief AG has apparently major problems with its German construction unit.

Looks like they either tried to squeeze some extra profit out of the public Transrapid project in the hope that the government wouldn't be to strict with the budget, or they just wanted to bail out and sometimes it is politically better to do that by claiming that external factors make it necessary to increase the price beyond acceptability instead of simply saying "we want to bail out for internal reasons" which might make you look as an unreliable partner and can lead to problems if you want to compete for future projects.

http://www.welt.de/welt_print/articl..._schaffen.html

Translation

Dusseldorf, March 27th...The European construction unit of Hochtief, which is fighting with high losses in Germany, is supposed to become profitable again in the medium term. Hochtief now wants to be as selective as Bilfinger Berger and decline projects which offer only low margins...
Pure speculation, the Munich maglev project is not even mentioned in the article you posted. If Hochtief could've made a profit on the project for the €1,5 billion that the project was quoted for, they would never have bailed out.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 04:46 PM   #97
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If Hochtief could've made a profit on the project for the €1,5 billion that the project was quoted for, they would never have bailed out.
Wrong reasoning. Hochtief apparently wants to restrict itself to HIGH MARGIN projects in the future. The Transrapid project might therefore very well have offered them a profit but apparently too low to compensate for the losses they are making elsewhere. And since they have limited ressources it is a rational decision to bail out of the Transrapid project and seek other ones where their limited ressources generate higher profits.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 04:50 PM   #98
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30. März 2007

Grüne warnen vor Kostenexplosion beim Bayern-Transrapid


Von Sebastian Fischer, München

Eigentlich soll im Herbst Baubeginn sein. Doch noch immer ist nicht klar, wer den Transrapid zum Münchner Flughafen eigentlich bezahlt. Jetzt präsentieren die Grünen ein Gutachten: Der Schwebezug kostet demnach auch noch über eine Milliarde Euro mehr als behauptet.

München - Er ist der große Traum des bayerischen Ministerpräsidenten Edmund Stoiber (CSU): der Transrapid. Auf der knapp 40 Kilometer langen Strecke zwischen Münchner Hauptbahnhof und Flughafen soll er in naher Zukunft im Zehn-Minuten-Takt verkehren. Baubeginn: Herbst 2007. Eigentlich. Denn die Einwendungen der betroffenen Bürger gehen in die Zehntausende, die Finanzierung ist nach wie vor ungeklärt.

Und jetzt prognostiziert ein Experte auch noch eine Kostensteigerung in Milliardenhöhe. Ein von der bayerischen Grünen-Fraktion in Auftrag gegebenes Gutachten kommt zu dem Schluss: "Die Transrapid-Trecke erfordert nach aktuellem Planungsstand Investitionskosten von rund 2,8 Milliarden Euro." Inklusive zusätzlicher Vorkehrungen zur Sicherheit kommt Gutachter Karlheinz Rößler auf einen Gesamtbetrag von 3,36 Milliarden Euro.


http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,474917,00.html

Basically, this article from the 30th of March 2007 (!) states that the costs are likely to be 3,36 billion Euro instead of the 1,85 billion euro that was projected. I guess die Grünen did something right after all... The article mentions that the projected 1,85 billion Euro is based on calculations made back in 2002. Reasons for the higher project costs that are mentioned in the article are more expensive construction material, two tunnels, and a 1 km addition to the track. I guess Stoiber and the CSU should've let go of this projects months ago.

Last edited by Joop20; March 28th, 2008 at 04:55 PM.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 04:53 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joop20
Reasons for the higher project costs that are mentioned in the article are more expensive construction material, two tunnels, and a 1 km addition to the track.
Which proves that it is not the Transrapid technology which is causing the cost increase but other factors.
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Last edited by C-Beam; March 28th, 2008 at 05:04 PM.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 05:02 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C-Beam View Post
What a nonsense. The increase in price was not caused by the providers of the Transrapid technology (Siemens and Thyssen-Krupp stuck to their original price estimates) but by the company which was supposed to do the concrete works and drill the tunnels (Hochtief AG). Hochtief argued that worldwide increases in commodity prices made it necessary for them to increase the price tag by more than a billion.
wait a sec, you are saying that the cost increase is partially due to the concrete works required by the maglev. so my question is, is the same concrete works necessary for a traditional rail that can run trains at 350KPH?
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