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Old April 2nd, 2009, 06:11 PM   #121
IcyUrmel
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There's nothing wrong about what you said - but:
This was only one of many projects to connect former East and West Germany, and this is the one that took longest by far. HRS between Hannover and Berlin came quite quickly, Modernizations of the Nürnberg-Jena-Leipzig-Berlin and Hamburg-Berlin connection also only took a few years.

Compared to these projects, the Nürnberg-Erfurt-Berlin connection was less attractive from the very beginning, so after having made some very ambitous plans, a reality check showed that - as not everything could be done in the same time - this would be the project to wait.
They started later than promised, stopped for several years after having finished maybe 30%, and then went on in a slower pace than possible in order not to spend too much money on this now.

To make my point clear: I don't think that the way this project was followed was smart at all. It always followed political, not economical interests and therefore wasted lots of money.
But it is neither symptomatic for the German Railways nor for German infrastructural developement in general.
I think 10 to 12 years would have been realistic and possible if not too many projects had been decided in the same time just after reunification.
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Old April 4th, 2009, 09:30 AM   #122
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Yeah, it's one of the main differences between federal Germany and centralist France: In France everybody is attuned to the idea that for the next five years (at any one point in time) one project, and one project only, shall enjoy nationwide priority. Then, of course, all the "local princes" (Les Barons, in French) fight - and fight dirty! - to see that THEIR region becomes the beneficiary of the national priority. At the end of the process most of the available money is spent on driving the chosen project forward "mit ach und krach". I have the strong impression that in Germany (in addition to the fact that your planning process is slower) money gets spread more thinly across the country? Each region wants - and is seen as entitled to - a slice of the cake?
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Old April 4th, 2009, 10:10 AM   #123
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That's still much better than the "process" in Canada.

If the federal government proposes to fund a big project somewhere, other parts of the country will be whining how their tax money is used to fund something they don't use, and all the journalists will be speculating what the government's election strategy will be. Opposition parties will be complaining the government wants to buy votes. Afterwards the proposal is put on hold, so nothing happens at the end.
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Old April 4th, 2009, 07:05 PM   #124
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This line is a classic example of why I feel _queezy_ about german HSR.

Today you can get to Warsaw from Berlin almost faster than you can get to München. I mean COME ON. You cant pinch every goddarn penny this much.
Yea, the classic lines are needed too, but former east germany got 2 (!) giga-airports already (Halle-Leipzig and BBI). I mean if you have money for both than surely 500 kms of HSR is within budget.


But what further enfuriate me is that they arent planning anything meaningful in the Paris-Wien connection. The french build 400 kms of 360kph to the border. Then the train will have to slow down to 160-250 'till Ulm (by 2020, maybe). Then nothing from Ulm to Augsburg (160kph maybe). Then 200kph from Augsburg to München.
Then again nothing is planned between München and Linz. Then 230, maybe 250 from Linz to Wien.

I mean, if we are planning europe to span from Glasgow to Ankara, then surely we would need a line that allows you to have breakfast in Paris, lunch in Budapest and dinner in Istanbul, no?
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Old April 4th, 2009, 07:15 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
[…]
Yea, the classic lines are needed too, but former east germany got 2 (!) giga-airports already (Halle-Leipzig and BBI). I mean if you have money for both than surely 500 kms of HSR is within budget.
These both are no "giga" airports. Just normal german airports.


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Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
But what further enfuriate me is that they arent planning anything meaningful in the Paris-Wien connection. The french build 400 kms of 360kph to the border. Then the train will have to slow down to 160-250 'till Ulm (by 2020, maybe). Then nothing from Ulm to Augsburg (160kph maybe). Then 200kph from Augsburg to München.
Vmax on Ulm–Augsburg is today 200 km/h. Augsburg–München will be 230 km/h.


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[…]
I mean, if we are planning europe to span from Glasgow to Ankara, then surely we would need a line that allows you to have breakfast in Paris, lunch in Budapest and dinner in Istanbul, no?
No. For such distances you better use a plane.
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Old April 4th, 2009, 07:29 PM   #126
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No. For such distances you better use a plane.
Tell that to the chinese
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Old April 4th, 2009, 08:10 PM   #127
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Now, now, Gramercy... such comparisons are dangerous. To finish the 1,200 km of HSR through the mountains between Beijing and Shanghai in five years the Chinese worked 24 hours a day, 365 days a year - including Christmas evening and Easter Monday.

Tell that to the Germans!
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Old April 4th, 2009, 10:35 PM   #128
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Tell that to the chinese
Why should I? I live in Europe, not in China. Distances up to 1000 km can be interesting for train, distances above this value are something for plane in Europe. Only exemption is perhaps Russia.
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Old April 4th, 2009, 11:24 PM   #129
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distances above this value are something for plane in Europe.
Except that Europe has the most crowded air traffic.

Except that today people regularly travel 5-6 hrs from Paris to the Cote d'Azur, so going at 300 kph average that would translate 1500-1600 km. People will EASILY use the train for such distances if they can get from Glasgow to the Alps or from Wien to the Black Sea etc.

Hell, today it takes LONGER to get from Berlin to München....and yet many people DONT fly.

Except that when the Spanish, Portugese, French and Italians are done you will be able to travel from Lisbon to Palermo on a dedicated high speed line.


Not many people drive their cars on the european highways from Uppsala to Alicante...but you the network exists.


There should be an inter-european network that spans 10s of 1000s of kilometres. And a Paris-Istanbul connection would be extremly crucial.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 01:50 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Yeah, it's one of the main differences between federal Germany and centralist France: In France everybody is attuned to the idea that for the next five years (at any one point in time) one project, and one project only, shall enjoy nationwide priority. Then, of course, all the "local princes" (Les Barons, in French) fight - and fight dirty! - to see that THEIR region becomes the beneficiary of the national priority. At the end of the process most of the available money is spent on driving the chosen project forward "mit ach und krach". I have the strong impression that in Germany (in addition to the fact that your planning process is slower) money gets spread more thinly across the country? Each region wants - and is seen as entitled to - a slice of the cake?
If it was a cake - where would the problem be? If there's a cake on the table, everybody has the right to get a slice.

Our Problem here in Germany is that quite often, it's not a cake. It's Spaghetti Bolognese with lots of Parmesano. And what happens? In year one, Stuttgart gets the noodles, Hamburg the sauce, and the cheese is sprinkled all over Bavaria. But no problem, next year, propably, if we don't run out of money, we should be ablo to give some sauce to Stuttgart...

So all money needed for one fine portion is spent, but nobody can yet enjoy dinner. And in two years, when cheese arrives in Stuttgart and noodles in Hamburg, in both places the sauce is totally cold already.


Between Ilmenau and Erfurt, this Sauce is waiting for about 5 years already. Bridges, tunnels, ..., everything. Just lying there more or less finished. Before finally opening the HSR in 2016 (+x), they will propably first have to renovate this section.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 02:32 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
distances above this value are something for plane in Europe. Only exemption is perhaps Russia.
Except that Europe has the most crowded air traffic.
The crowded air traffic is due to the fact that still planes go from Vienna to Innsbruck, from Amsterdam to Hamburg, from Stuttgart to Lyon.

These are air travels that make no sense, technically. They all could take place on the ground within less than 2 hours, far more effectively, if the infrastructure was there.

Distances above maybe 1.000 km (please let's not discuss on the exact figure) still can take place more effectively in the air. Slots on European HSR lines will be rare also in a far future (hopefully!).


So, going from Glasgow to the Alps or from Lisboa to Palermo by plane is not only faster and more efficient, it also keeps the HSR lines able to provide necessary capacities for those who want/have to make a medium distance trip.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 02:46 AM   #132
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Today you can get to Warsaw from Berlin almost faster than you can get to München.
Considering even the direct distance between Warszawa and Berlin is 5% shorter than Berlin to Munich, is that really all that surprising?

EC Berlin - Warszawa : 5 hours 51 minutes (via Poznan)
ICE Berlin - Munich : 5 hours 52 minutes (via Leipzig - Nürnberg)
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Old April 5th, 2009, 09:29 AM   #133
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Yes, you're right kato2k8. But, really, it's like comparing one sad story with another. Berlin-Warsaw and Berlin-Muenchen are definitely shorter than Paris-Marseilles and - I think (do you know the exact distance?) - also shorter than Madrid-Barcelona. Both of the above offer non-stop connections with no more than 3 hours' travel time. The comparison is not perfect, of course...

...among other things, the "Mittelgebirge" north of Nuremberg makes it costly and time consuming to take decisive action. If anything then the flat plains between Berlin and Warsaw would be fast easier to concer. But... it's an international connection and hence low on DB's radar screen. Compare with the new Cologne-Brussels connection where the geography cries to high heavens for a direct line between Cologne and Liege. Not to happen. Last time I took the Thalys we lost an estimated 12-15 minutes in the agglomeration of Aachen. Three people left the train; one person got on.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 09:49 AM   #134
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hills and mountains are no excuse

the french will tunnel under the riviera for fraks sake
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Old April 5th, 2009, 02:05 PM   #135
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Except that Europe has the most crowded air traffic.

Except that today people regularly travel 5-6 hrs from Paris to the Cote d'Azur, so going at 300 kph average that would translate 1500-1600 km. People will EASILY use the train for such distances if they can get from Glasgow to the Alps or from Wien to the Black Sea etc.
[…]
There will be no lines on which it would be possible to reach 300 km/h average from Paris to Budapest or from Munich to Istanbul etc. It would not be economically to operate such lines. It makes more sence to substitute flights between Paris and Stuttgart and Paris and Munich for example.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 02:13 PM   #136
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[…]
But... it's an international connection and hence low on DB's radar screen. Compare with the new Cologne-Brussels connection where the geography cries to high heavens for a direct line between Cologne and Liege. Not to happen. Last time I took the Thalys we lost an estimated 12-15 minutes in the agglomeration of Aachen. Three people left the train; one person got on.
First of all Aachen is bigger than Liège, second today's inadequate connection between Liège and Aachen is not the fault of the DB but of SNCB. Their new LGV3 is not in service till today. Between Aachen and Düren Vmax is 160 km/h and between Düren and Köln it is 250 km/h.
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Last edited by JoKo65; April 5th, 2009 at 05:11 PM.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 04:46 PM   #137
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Their new LGV3 is not in service till today.
Will be in service this summer - they say...
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Old April 5th, 2009, 09:44 PM   #138
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I don't get it, 20 years for such a project is basically quite fast (at least for German standards, i don't think that there's much of a difference to France)! You have to think of all the planning, protests by NIMBYs, etc. There are far more scary examples (A 94 is planned/under construction/stopped/and everything between for several decades now...).
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Old April 6th, 2009, 12:45 AM   #139
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As for France, I think you'll find that recent large projects (one example being the LGV-Est from Paris to the Voges) were rolled out in about 1/3 of that time. But, I suspect that the confusion stems from how much of the political preparations we count as part of the project time? It's quite correct that politicians in most other countries (or DEMOCRATIC countries: the political planning is quite swift in China...) also bicker forever. It can take literally decades to decide on a project in France as well.

All I meant to say is, once a law has been approved to build such-and-such a railway line then the process in virtually unstoppable. Even if the country hits the worst financial crisis in a generation, the project will continue without the slightest slowdown. The difference, as far as I've understood, is that public budgets in Germany are based on cash spending frames. If money runs out then, for that reason, work stops.
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Old April 6th, 2009, 09:42 PM   #140
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Main problem in Germany is that NIMBYs and interest groups (ecologists, typically ) can block a project for quite a long time by calling the courts... The idea is not bad at all (but just democratic), but can result in delays of decades: For the A94 (Munich-Passau) they had to plan with several alternatives because some groups always found a way to block. Finally, the motorway will be build now...
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