Liverpool Churches/Places of Worship.

[openlyJane]

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[Tom Hughes]

I seem to have stumbled upon a 'sore point'?

hope it's ok now....

For me it all comes down to the necessity for faith, direct relationship and the need to let go and trust. I do not need some bloke in a frock mediating for me.

I just wondered why you referenced (Roman) Catholicism, and no other "frock" wearing fraternity that was mentioned.... But, to be honest I think the real mediation issue was more with respect to the whole "Holy Trinity as opposed to holy unity" thingy rather than whether or not you needed a priest/preacher/minister/vicar or even a church at all. I just took the whole "mediation" theme a little further.

Given the original wealthy congregation of this church and their belief in their more direct relationship with God, it all seems like a class system of worship don't you think.....? low church, high church etc.... How very English, the upper classes can go straight to the top, cut out the middle-man. The rest will have to settle for Jesus. I wonder how that religious superiority all balanced against many of their family's slave-trade history....

I'm not sure what a 'theological acas...' is? Can you explain?

A.C.A.S....??!!

[the golden vision]

Originally Posted by openlyJane

Very beautiful. Did you make an appointment?

I take it that they are the William Morris windows? Because they are very decorative!

Yes, but i wasn't allotted much time understandably. They do have Open Days in the summer like the other Grade 1 churches in the area.

[the golden vision]

All honesty i don't think Jane meant any offence so can we leave it now. Thanks.

[the golden vision]

More Morris & Co windows at All Hallows, Allerton.

[Tom Hughes]

Originally Posted by the golden vision

All honesty i don't think Jane meant any offence so can we leave it now. Thanks.

I assure you, I'm not offended in the slightest..... should I be?

[the golden vision]

Originally Posted by Tom Hughes

I assure you, I'm not offended in the slightest..... should I be?

That's good...because i wouldn't like to see you offended. Now this thread is about religious buildings not doctrine/theology so unless you're going to contribute constructively find something else to do.

[openlyJane]

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[Tom Hughes]

Originally Posted by the golden vision

That's good...because i wouldn't like to see you offended. Now this thread is about religious buildings not doctrine/theology so unless you're going to contribute constructively find something else to do.

Actually I was responding directly to Jane's posts..... should I assume therefore you are addressing that to Jane too..... and if so, why not intercede earlier?

I think you'll find the whole raison d'etre, and indeed much of the design features of these buildings (especially the windows perhaps) will be very deeply entwined with doctrine, and no doubt this prompted Jane's analysis. I simply responded directly asking about the particular reference to catholicism and frocks etc.... but thanks for telling me what I can or can't do. It's much appreciated!

[the golden vision]

Originally Posted by Tom Hughes

Actually I was responding directly to Jane's posts..... should I assume therefore you are addressing that to Jane too..... and if so, why not intercede earlier?

I think you'll find the whole raison d'etre, and indeed much of the design features of these buildings (especially the windows perhaps) will be very deeply entwined with doctrine, and no doubt this prompted Jane's analysis. I simply responded directly asking about the particular reference to catholicism and frocks etc.... but thanks for telling me what I can or can't do. It's much appreciated!

Apologies Tom. I didn't want to get involved. Hoping it would end early. I was aware that potentially someone could've taken offence at Jane's comment. Knowing it was completely innocent and knowing her motives i didn't myself. I know you are aware of my religion and i know when people are singling it out for attack. This wasn't the case.

[Tom Hughes]

Originally Posted by openlyJane

To be honest, you've completely lost me here

You clearly have a sensitivity to some sort of 'politics' that are really lost on me.

Anyway, Jesus is the man for me - just not the guy, any guy in a frock.

I do not see how faith is a matter of class or of superiority. I would have thought that those who cling to social mores and notions of respectability would be a little lacking in faith - as I see it anyway.

Let's get something straight right from the off.......

I'm not the least bit sensitive nor offended about anything at all in this thread...... you tried to furnish us with your interpretation of the Unitarian theology by comparing to catholicism..... I just wondered if you knew what the whole mediation thing meant in this context..... hence my mention of ACAS (as a joke)....... You didn't get it, just as you didn't understand the Holy Trinity versus Unitarian reference in terms of mediation..... the very basis of the comparison YOU tried to make. No men in frocks required.....

I was just asking where you were coming from, it would appear you don't really know..... no big deal, and certainly nothing for me to be sensitive about or offended by!

[openlyJane]

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[Tom Hughes]

You are completely wrong and are blowing things up out of all proportion - because you seem to think that i hate Catholics or Catholicism. I take it that you a Roman Catholic.

Actually Jane, It is you who is over-reacting here. Where have I said I think you hate Roman Catholics? I'm wrong about what? I responded in a joking way about your interpretation of something that apparently "a nice lady" told you, hence the acas reference. Your response told me in an instant that you didn't actually know what "mediation" (hardly a trigger in the slightest) meant in this context. I then explained that the Unitarian stance is not at all about whether or not a human being (priest/vicar/whoever) can be your mediator with god (how could it be an issue, they have their own ministers), but whether or not Jesus is mediator, they don't believe he can be...... to the extent that by the time this church was built many "Unitarians" around the world were not even Christians, they didn't need to be. They may have come full circle by now, as there were a few different factions I believe.

I am now aware of how the influences of sectarianism in Liverpool are still strong and the effects of that result in hurt and anger.

Now you're accusing me of sectarianism? haha.... I've spent all my working life with Ulstermen and Glaswegians of both sides. I can assure you, none would ever level that one at me (in the slightest). Sectarianism is generally just bias that is based on simple ignorance and with respect, it's only you who has demonstrated seriously flawed knowledge (by your own admission). I simply questioned your assertions. You responded with something about "nice old ladies", pre-conceived ideology and an unhealthy obsession with frocked clergy thrown in..... LOL (laughs out loud ).

[openlyJane]

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[Tom Hughes]

Sorry Jane, but you're talking in riddles.

- your responses were angry - leaving me to assume that you had lived/worked in an environment scarred by such things.

There lies the problem, YOU make very poor assumptions, and then post them as if fact. I'm neither angry nor scarred? You seem to be desperate to turn this into something it's not. I wonder why? It is only you who keeps mentioning sectarianism..... to deflect from your inability to respond on the subject you posted on? I tried to explain my understanding of Unitarianism to you, and put it in a nutshell at least twice.... No big deal at all.... yet you decided to choke on it, and cough-up the sectarian-card from god knows where (left field perhaps).

It is you who seem to have an 'unhealthy obsession' with 'putting me right'.

Surely it's never "unhealthy" to "put people right" ...... I thought informative discussion/debate was the whole purpose of this and any similar board. I asked a simple question (with a joke, sorry I didn't use a few smileys to make it more obvious), you couldn't answer so I was then accused of being angry, scarred and sectarian....... and I'm supposed to be sensitive haha, go figure. Apparently, it is MY problem that YOU don't know what you're talking about.... (even after its explained!).

Haven't you reacted similarly to others who've had the temerity to question your assertions? Was it Babs perhaps?

Perhaps we can get back to pictures of churches now

It's Sunday, why not just go to one instead, no need for an appointment today, you might find lots of nice old ladies, and glean even greater insight to enlighten us all with....

PS.... I'm still not angry.
PPS... apologies to GV for punctuating his predominently pictorial thread with unnecessary text.

[openlyJane]

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[openlyJane]

Ecclesiastical garments at SFX in Everton.

[openlyJane]

Window at the Greek Orthodox Church - Princes Rd.

[openlyJane]

Stairwell and dome at The Greek Orthodox Church.

[the golden vision]

Originally Posted by openlyJane

The Lady Chapel at SFX.

This my favourite picture of the thread so far. It's in the Early English style, subtleties of light and shade. Never actually been in there.