Transport | Electrification

[WingTips]

Work on the Manchester -Liverpool electrification works gears up in June, July and August, track lowering will be taking place at Stott lane, Derby Rd Windsor St, and Weaste Rd, the majority of the work will take place at night, good to see this project gathering momentum.

[VoldemortBlack]

Will this be Overhead electrification or traction?

[Gdogg371]

Originally Posted by WingTips

Work on the Manchester -Liverpool electrification works gears up in June, July and August, track lowering will be taking place at Stott lane, Derby Rd Windsor St, and Weaste Rd, the majority of the work will take place at night, good to see this project gathering momentum.

i used to frequently see workmen late at night by the junction for the windsor link when my girlfriend lived in fusion. looked distinctly xfiles esque watching them all working under a massive spot lamp in the dark.

[future.architect]

Originally Posted by VoldemortBlack

Will this be Overhead electrification or traction?

I don't mean to be rude, but are you serious?

Ok, maybe I was out of order there so I will explain for folk who don't know.

The electrification will be the national standard and the type used in other areas of Manchester which is 25 KV AC overhead. Although 3rd rail is used by merseyrail and around south London, it wont ever make an apearence in any other areas. For various technical and safety reasons, overhead is generally considered a better system and it is already the most common electrification system in the uk. Also, consider that since all the other electrification around Manchester is overhead, it wouldn't make sense introduce a new system.

Merseyrail will probably stay 3rd rail
Since aparently the overhead system won't fit it the tunnels, however, some or all of the new merseyrail trains may be dual voltage which means they can work on both systems.

[MarkO]

Originally Posted by future.architect

Although 3rd rail is used by merseyrail and around south London, it wont ever make an apearence in any other areas. For various technical and safety reasons, overhead is generally considered a better system and it is already the most common electrification system in the uk. ail trains may be dual voltage which means they can work on both systems.

You make a good point here Future, and I do wonder if there will ever be any new 3rd (& 4th) rail anywhere. Except perhaps if any of the Underground ever gets extended (Battersea/Camberwell/Watford being the only 'live-ish' remaining proposals left AFAIK).

Suppose we might get a little more in the 'protected' form of DLR but completely exposed live rails seem to be finished. With contemporary views on protection of wildlife and animals generally, ground based current fries too many poor creatures.

Does anyone think that maybe one day they might even replace some of the 3rd rail in the S.E (or even MerseyRail) with overhead? Plenty of dead foxes/cats etc along the lines there would tend to indicate that might eventually be a wise move??

[Isaac Newell]

Originally Posted by future.architect

I don't mean to be rude, but are you serious?

That thought flashed across my mind too

No harm in asking any question though.

[VoldemortBlack]

Haha no the stupidity is on my part, I should've thought first!

Thanks for an informative answer though

[future.architect]

Originally Posted by MarkO

You make a good point here Future, and I do wonder if there will ever be any new 3rd (& 4th) rail anywhere. Except perhaps if any of the Underground ever gets extended (Battersea/Camberwell/Watford being the only 'live-ish' remaining proposals left AFAIK).

Suppose we might get a little more in the 'protected' form of DLR but completely exposed live rails seem to be finished. With contemporary views on protection of wildlife and animals generally, ground based current fries too many poor creatures.

Does anyone think that maybe one day they might even replace some of the 3rd rail in the S.E (or even MerseyRail) with overhead? Plenty of dead foxes/cats etc along the lines there would tend to indicate that might eventually be a wise move??

I'm sure i read somewhere that the HSE will only allow extensions of 3rd and 4th rail systems. If Merseyrail, for example is extended It would make no sense to intoduce 25KV AC unless you where going to install it on the entire network, which would cost a fortune and would be technicaly difficult.

The way things happen in this country, I think 3rd rail is here to stay, unless something better than overhead AC comes along which aint gonna happen too soon.

And Volde, no such thing as a stupid question, not at your age anyway

[Martin S]

Originally Posted by future.architect

I'm sure i read somewhere that the HSE will only allow extensions of 3rd and 4th rail systems. If Merseyrail, for example is extended It would make no sense to intoduce 25KV AC unless you where going to install it on the entire network, which would cost a fortune and would be technicaly difficult.

The way things happen in this country, I think 3rd rail is here to stay, unless something better than overhead AC comes along which aint gonna happen too soon.

And Volde, no such thing as a stupid question, not at your age anyway

I think it goes without saying that any modern electric traction system would tend to use 25kV AC overhead. The advantages include safety, reliability and cost (high voltages can be transmitted over longer distances so saving on sub-stations). The former objections to overhead - the need to raise bridges to obtain clearance are less stringent nowadays as improved design allows reduced clearances.

However, I doubt that London Underground, Merseyrail or the SE rail network are likely to change over to 25kV AC any time soon. Although it is not always the case, clearances in tunnels tend to prevent the installation of OLE equipment.

The most talked about extension to the Merseyrail electrics network - from Bidston to Wrexham will, if it goes ahead, almost certainly use OLE with dual voltage trains changing to DC third rail at Bidston. Dual voltage operation is nothing new and happens at the Thameslink station at Farringdon using the electric units that are due to be transferred to work on the new electrified lines in the north west.

Smaller electrification schemes, such as Kirkby to Headbolt Lane will almost certainly be done with third rail.

The Edge Hill to Manchester and Wigan electrifications will be overhead line as is the existing Runcorn line. If, in the future, these lines are linked to the DC network via a tunnelled link to Central Low Level, then the dual voltage trains will come into their own.

[VoldemortBlack]

Another update now. Well, nothing much has really happened to the railway at all. They're focusing more at the moment on reinforcing or "rebuilding" the bridges which cross it. Meaning they've made a mess of the roads and pedestrian bridges here in Eccles:



Cornerstone Bridge:



Perhaps the only bit of actual railway-level contact is this scaffolding, reaching down from Monton Road bridge. Sorry about my thumb.




Trains are still running along this line but I assume they will be suspended sometime in the coming year and replaced in 2016 with electric trains!

[WingTips]

Originally Posted by VoldemortBlack

Another update now. Well, nothing much has really happened to the railway at all. They're focusing more at the moment on reinforcing or "rebuilding" the bridges which cross it. Meaning they've made a mess of the roads and pedestrian bridges here in Eccles:



Cornerstone Bridge:



Perhaps the only bit of actual railway-level contact is this scaffolding, reaching down from Monton Road bridge. Sorry about my thumb.




Trains are still running along this line but I assume they will be suspended sometime in the coming year and replaced in 2016 with electric trains!

This part of the project should be electrified by 2013 and hopefully EMU`s running by then...however this will depend on the rolling stock being cascaded (dont you just love that word, why they just dont say second hand stuff being passed down) from Southern or from where ever they are coming from.

[VoldemortBlack]

Oh, my bad. I heard somewhere it was 2016. 2013 seems very unrealistic! But I'm no expert.

It upsets me that they're giving us second hand stock but in these times it's all we can afford and I guess it's recycling?

[link_road_17/7]

December 2013 is the planned date for our (FTPE) introduction of electric Manchester - Scottish services. This will release diesel Class 185s back for their original purpose of strengthening North (Liverpool/Mcr Airport - Manchester - Leeds - York) Route service.

What isn't known, yet, is whether we are getting cast-offs from London Midland in the shape of 350/1s, or newbuild Desiros.

BR did rolling stock cascades very well, particularly on schemes in London & South East. It is just a shame that DfT doesn't order enought stock to enable them to happen! IIRC, it is over 800+ days since DfT placed a *confirmed* order for new rolling stock. That is as bad as at the start of privatisation!

[AndrooGM]

Originally Posted by link_road_17/7

December 2013 is the planned date for our (FTPE) introduction of electric Manchester - Scottish services. This will release diesel Class 185s back for their original purpose of strengthening North (Liverpool/Mcr Airport - Manchester - Leeds - York) Route service.

What isn't known, yet, is whether we are getting cast-offs from London Midland in the shape of 350/1s, or newbuild Desiros.

BR did rolling stock cascades very well, particularly on schemes in London & South East. It is just a shame that DfT doesn't order enought stock to enable them to happen! IIRC, it is over 800+ days since DfT placed a *confirmed* order for new rolling stock. That is as bad as at the start of privatisation!

Are these Manchester - Scotland services still planned to be rerouted via Eccles and Wigan just out of curiosity?

[madferret]

Originally Posted by AndrooGM

Are these Manchester - Scotland services still planned to be rerouted via Eccles and Wigan just out of curiosity?

Yes.

[link_road_17/7]

Originally Posted by madferret

Yes.

One disbenefit is that should the Chat Moss route be blocked, there isn't an alternative for diversionary purposes until the Chorley/Bolton route is wired.

So in the event of disruption, electric services might be turned at Preston or Wigan. It'd be like dumping London pax at Watford Junction or Milton Keynes!

[DiscoSteve]

Originally Posted by link_road_17/7

IIRC, it is over 800+ days since DfT placed a *confirmed* order for new rolling stock. That is as bad as at the start of privatisation!

This is what killed rolling stock manufacture in this country.

[WingTips]

Originally Posted by AndrooGM

Are these Manchester - Scotland services still planned to be rerouted via Eccles and Wigan just out of curiosity?

I thought it was unlikely that NR are spending millions of pounds to electrify this line just for MAN-LPL services, I would imgine we will see operations on this line quadruple in the next few years.

[WatcherZero]

Currently planned, Man-Liv, Man-Scotland and Man-Wigan services to use the line. When Bolton lines done that will be the electric diversion route.

[DiscoSteve]

Surely would it not be the other way round. Bolton being the usual more direct route to the north and the eccles route being the diversion?