RIS-ORANGIS - New national rugby stadium (82,000)

[Jim856796]

Whoever thought of this white elephant rugby stadium has to be smoking something, oh I don't know...endo?

[Walbanger]

Could be an attractive venue for the NFL for its international fixture which has mostly been played in London.

[cocazero]

http://www.thiais-orly-rugby.fr/

New website for national rugby stadium proposal "Thiais-Orly".

[Good Karma]

This stadium is screaming 'White Elephant' to me especially if they are planning to build such a large stadium. With the Stade De France there is no need. The Aviva and Millenium need to share with football. Murrayfield also loses money (I think). Only Twickenham seemed the most reliable Rugby only stadium within the '6 Nations' as it hosts so many events that it would be impossible for it to share with other sports.

[bigbossman]

So if Twickenham can exist without sharing why can't a french rugby stadium which would host a similar number of events?

[Axelferis]

Originally Posted by Good Karma

This stadium is screaming 'White Elephant' to me especially if they are planning to build such a large stadium. With the Stade De France there is no need. The Aviva and Millenium need to share with football. Murrayfield also loses money (I think). Only Twickenham seemed the most reliable Rugby only stadium within the '6 Nations' as it hosts so many events that it would be impossible for it to share with other sports.

don't forget one thing!

If it's built, this stadium will be a giant arena (retractable roof) that can host much more events than Stade de France

Add a retractable roof and all changes in your approach of entertainement...

[Andy-i]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

So if Twickenham can exist without sharing why can't a french rugby stadium which would host a similar number of events?

Wont there be a big difference in costs though?

The RFU already owned Twickenham and upgraded it in stages. Does anyone know what it cost? I'd guess at less than £200M

The FFR will need to buy the land and then build it from scratch at a cost of at least €600M

[Good Karma]

Originally Posted by Axelferis

don't forget one thing!

If it's built, this stadium will be a giant arena (retractable roof) that can host much more events than Stade de France

Add a retractable roof and all changes in your approach of entertainement...

I guess I like the Stade De France and just can't see the cost effectiveness of the new stadium altho I was surprised to read from your post that the FFR are losing money. However the difference with Twickenham was it was built in stages over a number of years. This will be from Scratch. If they do decide to go ahead with it I hope they take everything into consideration as it will be a shame for the Stade De France to miss out on these events.

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by Andy-i

Wont there be a big difference in costs though?

The RFU already owned Twickenham and upgraded it in stages. Does anyone know what it cost? I'd guess at less than £200M

The FFR will need to buy the land and then build it from scratch at a cost of at least €600M

Yes the cost will be higher, but if they believe they can cover it, what is the problem? After all once the costs are cover the asset would be one hell of a revenue generator. Also funds to cover it can come from all their sources (Sponsorship, TV) not just stadium income.

[Andy-i]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

Yes the cost will be higher, but if they believe they can cover it, what is the problem? After all once the costs are cover the asset would be one hell of a revenue generator. Also funds to cover it can come from all their sources (Sponsorship, TV) not just stadium income.

It's a big IF though.

For comparison the RFU turnover is around £100-120M a year depending on how many 6ns games and AI's they host.

On that turnover they are making an operating profit of around £25-35M and a profit before tax of less than £10M

I don't know if the FFR have as many costs and grass root funding requirements etc as the RFU but it will definitely take them a long long time to pay for this new stadium.

Is it possible, its a stalking horse to get a better deal from the SDF?

[parcdesprinces]

Originally Posted by Good Karma

This stadium is screaming 'White Elephant' to me [...] Only Twickenham seemed the most reliable Rugby only stadium within the '6 Nations' as it hosts so many events that it would be impossible for it to share with other sports.

Well, you seem not to know very well the Paris entertainment market, because for example, Stade de France hosts between 40 and 45 major events per year (+ more than 200 corporate events annually), which means more than Wembley and Twickenham put together. Then, if there is enough room for two financially viable large stadiums in London, so is in Paris IMO according to the major-events market of the Paris metro area (not to mention the Paris convention/seminar/corporate events market, which is the largest in Europe).


About the cost of this hypothetical stadium (€600 million), apparently a significant part will be fund by the Naming rights, the TV rights and the sponsorship deals. Not to mention that the land where the stadium will be built, will be certainly let almost for free by the public authorities of the location they will choose, wherever it is. etc


------------

Originally Posted by Axelferis

don't forget one thing!

If it's built, this stadium will be a giant arena (retractable roof) that can host much more events than Stade de France

Add a retractable roof and all changes in your approach of entertainement...

I know you love to compare everything with Lille all the time , but actually, this FFR stadium won't host more events than Stade de France, but simply different ones (especially in winter). Because as a matter of fact, the FFR is planning to host only 20 major events/matches per year in this stadium (approx. the same number as Twickenham hosts), while Stade de France hosts more than 40 major events per year (including approx. 8 rugby games).

[kerouac1848]

Originally Posted by parcdesprinces

Well, you seem not to know very well the Paris entertainment market, because for example, Stade de France hosts between 40 and 45 major events per year (+ more than 200 corporate events annually), which means more than Wembley and Twickenham put together.

I think Wembley is capped by the council at between 25-30 events per year.

[Jim856796]

If London can manage with Wembley as the big football stadium and Twickenham as the big rugby stadium, why can't Paris do the same with Stade de France and the new rugby stadium?

[michał_]

Originally Posted by Jim856796

If London can manage with Wembley as the big football stadium and Twickenham as the big rugby stadium, why can't Paris do the same with Stade de France and the new rugby stadium?

Because French Football Federation is not capable of drawing crowds similar to the English FA for football games (in fact, I don't think any federation can)? Because Paris - with all due respect - is significantly smaller as an entertainment market than London (which is the biggest one in the world). Not sure about comparison between rugby federations in both cities...

[parcdesprinces]

Originally Posted by michał_

Because Paris - with all due respect - is significantly smaller as an entertainment market than London (which is the biggest one in the world)

Says the (Brit wannabe )Polish guy...


Anyway, here are some live concerts for ya :

(attended, among others, at the Eiffel Tower by 900,000 Frenchies.. myself included)





Paris, La Défense (1990 Bastille Day): Jean-Michel Jarre concert

Attendance: 2,500,000 !!! = World record ! (myself included)

[michał_]

Originally Posted by parcdesprinces

Says the (Brit wannabe )Polish guy...

Says Stadium Consultancy, Europe's leading company analysing stadium usage. Not being able to accept facts and needing to go personal sounds very French, though.

By the way - can you give any figures on how much did the organizers earn on ticketing of these two concerts?

[Jericho-79]

Originally Posted by michał_

Because Paris - with all due respect - is significantly smaller as an entertainment market than London (which is the biggest one in the world).

Paris is as big in the entertainment market as London. Trust me- I was there.

[RobH]

If London can manage with Wembley as the big football stadium and Twickenham as the big rugby stadium, why can't Paris do the same with Stade de France and the new rugby stadium?

The RFU has grown up with Twickenham. It's evolved over time into the stadium it is today. Ditto Wembley and the FA. They've always been seperate.

The French RFU would need to incur significant debts to finanance and build their own stadium, on the other hand.

The support for Rugby might be similar, but the situations aren't. It'd be getting the project off the ground that's the problem, not filling the stadium should it be built.

And of course, that's before you even get into questions around how the SdF's business model may have to change.

[parcdesprinces]

Rob,

How many (sold out) major events per year at Wembley ?
How many (sold out) major events per year at Twickenham ?
How many (sold out) major events per year at Stade de France ?

SdF > Wembley + Twickers, on that matter ! (AFAIK)



How many corporate events per year at Wembley ?
How many corporate events per year at Twickenham ?
How many corporate events per year at Stade de France ?

SdF > Wembley + Twickers, on that matter ! (AFAIK)

[Jim856796]

Paris is never gonna have their own Twickenham, so what's the point in even building a brand new 80k national rugby stadium, anyway? Might as well forget about it and drop the proposal.