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Old April 16th, 2011, 11:37 PM   #2001
Smooth Indian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
That is why central planned economies FAIL in the long term. And China's economic failure will be interesting to watch as the country grows more complex and industrialized. You can't keep the tights in the economy forever. I just hope the Chinese government fall sooner rather than later and the communist party is disbanded, but that is beyond the scope of this thread.
The American economy on the other hand hasn't particularly distinguished itself to be a runaway success in the long run either. In China atleast the airlines may have failed bcoz of the investment in HSR. In the USA airlines fail inspite of the lack of govt investment in alternatives. On the contrary despite govt attempts to bail out certain airlines they seem to get bankrupt or lay off employees.
Centrally planned economies when done right can deliver good results. Similarly, a market based economy may also loose its steam by a series of complimentary events. It is better we discuss China's HSR system rather than debate on which economic system is best.
For all the faults that china's authoritarian system may/maynot have, China's high speed rail ambitions are unique and so are the massive efforts behind making them a success. What also sets china apart is how he chinese are/were trying to stretch the limits of steel wheel on rail technology.
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Old April 17th, 2011, 12:14 AM   #2002
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Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
So could anyone provide us with at least some rough estimates of how much extra energy is needed to run at 350km/h and 380km/h compared to 300km/h?
Sourse IRJ:
Quote:
When running at 380km/h, per capita energy consumption per 100km remains below 5.2kWh
With a seating capacity of 494 (8-car train), i calculate ~25.7kWh/km. At 300km/h, i reckon between 15-17kWh/km.
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Old April 17th, 2011, 02:17 AM   #2003
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Did/do trains at 350 km/h compete with planes for 968 km distance?

What shall be the trip distance Wuhan-Guangzhou with 300 km/h top speed?


What is now the price ratio between plane tickets Wuhan-Guangzhou, and train tickets at 350 km/h?
You are an avid reader of this forum and so I am sure you can find the answers in this very topic
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Old April 17th, 2011, 02:22 AM   #2004
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There is no conspiracy theory, this is a fact. If I have a central planning organization who has to balance the economics strategy of a nation, I would have done the same. HSR has killed so many once popular domestic airline routes that it's not funny anymore, let alone the possibility that ARJ21 will never sell enough to break even.
HSR killed domestic airline routes because it has been better. What is wrong with that? I would prefer high speed rail over flight anytime if they are comparable in speed and price. simply because trains are much more comfortable. I think today's technology allows high speed trains to beat airliners below 1000km distances. It is a shame this distance brought down to 500-600km because of corruption and politics not anything related to technology or market.
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Old April 17th, 2011, 03:52 AM   #2005
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I agree, but this messure is strategic.

it'll give some fresh air to local airliners a couple of years till they develop and can beat foreign companies abroad, then HSR will be at max speed again.
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Old April 17th, 2011, 03:54 AM   #2006
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
That is why central planned economies FAIL in the long term. And China's economic failure will be interesting to watch as the country grows more complex and industrialized. You can't keep the tights in the economy forever. I just hope the Chinese government fall sooner rather than later and the communist party is disbanded, but that is beyond the scope of this thread.
this brasilean guy is always wrong, it's funny to read him
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Old April 17th, 2011, 05:16 AM   #2007
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Wow, they really slammed the brakes here, pardon the pun. I've been reading that the trainsets were rapidly being worn out as well, and I'm sorry to say, I knew this would happen. They were running them well into their safety margins, and the "digested" technology just didn't have the capability.

This all happened because the government was trying to give the impression of innovation, which was really just technology transfer. It's sad to see this happen, but China still has the world's largest network, and 300kph isn't exactly slow. At least I got to travel on it before it slowed.
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Old April 17th, 2011, 05:40 AM   #2008
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Wow, they really slammed the brakes here, pardon the pun. I've been reading that the trainsets were rapidly being worn out as well
any source or link?
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Old April 17th, 2011, 01:21 PM   #2009
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Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
You are an avid reader of this forum and so I am sure you can find the answers in this very topic
I am sure that the proposal to run Wuhan-Guangzhou high speed trains at 300 km/h rather than 350 km/h is quite new.
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Old April 17th, 2011, 11:24 PM   #2010
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Originally Posted by fragel View Post
any source or link?
I'll try to find one, but that's what people have been telling me.

Quote:
Experts have questioned the safety of China's high-speed railways. An executive at a non-Chinese high-speed train manufacturer said running trains above speeds of 330 kilometers an hour poses safety concerns and higher costs. At that speed threshold, wheels slip so much that you need bigger motors and significantly more electricity to operate. There is also so much wear on the tracks that costs for daily inspections, maintenance and repairs go up sharply. That's why in Europe, Japan and Korea no operators run trains above 320 kilometers (200 mph) an hour, the executive said, adding that above 330-350 kilometers an hour it is safer and possibly cheaper to float the trains magnetically.

Read more: http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/denn...#ixzz1JoXl38u1
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Old April 17th, 2011, 11:54 PM   #2011
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It really is extremely difficult right now to give an exact reason as to why the HSLs are having their top-speed reduced and HSR programmes slowed. What people must realise is that the railways are a semi-military operation and are such subject to much heavier media cencorship than many other topics or industries, so railway-specialist forums like haise are (as good as) closed-down, and urban-rail forums with rail sections like metrofans told 'not to discuss HSR and Liu', the direct result of which is no facts, but hints, rumours and conjections swimming all over the place. You can automatically discount any mainstream media-source.

Some people say the move is purely political, others say it's to reduce operational cost and pave way for ticket price reductions. Quality issues due to hurried construction have been quoted too. I suspect it's a mixture of those reasons.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 01:48 AM   #2012
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China's High Speed Rail Network Unsafe and Unprofitable

True or false ?



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For more news visit ☛ http://english.ntdtv.com
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China's high-speed rail network has come under fire for being unsafe and unprofitable. The official overseeing the project was discharged for corruption. With reports circulating about shoddy construction practices, one has to feel a little concerned for Chinese commuters. Here's this report.

China's massive high-speed rail network is being called unsafe, unprofitable and corrupt.

The Chinese Railways Ministry Chief, Liu Zhijun was in charge of the construction of the railway, spanning almost 8,100 miles across China and reportedly costing $395 billion U.S. dollars.

Liu was fired In February. He's now behind bars and under investigation for (quote) "severe violations of discipline." During his seven years as chief, he embezzled a personal fortune of $120 billion U.S. dollars.

Corruption is not the only problem plaguing China's railways. Experts say shoddy materials were used to cut costs. According to a source for the New York Times, the concrete bases for the tracks were so cheaply made, with insufficient hardening agents that the tracks would warp in five years.

On top of the safety risks, high-speed trains are more expensive. A passenger on the Shanghai-Hangzhou line last year said first class was completely empty and he was the only passenger in his second-class cabin.

With high construction costs, safety risks and dissatisfied passengers, the debt-ratio of the Chinese regime's railway ministry, which stands at about 70 percent, could face an even more dismal future.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 01:52 AM   #2013
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US TO INTRODUCE CHINA´S HIGH-SPEED RAIL CCTV News



Quote:
Chicago is on track to become the first American city to introduce China's high-speed railway system. Chinese companies are also expected to fund this billion-dollar project.

That's the word from Chicago Mayor Richard Daley. He's on a two-week visit in China at the invitation of the Chinese People's Association for Friendship with Foreign Countries.

Information provided by cctv.com Thank you http://www.cctv.com

http://www.youtube.com/user/keymaste.../1/Due3iUlaoX4
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Old April 18th, 2011, 04:23 AM   #2014
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What on earth does that mean? And what on earth is some cute American chick doing on Chinese television? How on earth can a city have a high-speed rail line?

Great timing, mayor Daley! This is all very terrible, sounds like HSR is in free fall.

Quote:
Chinese train engineer: “I will never takes China’s high-speed trains.”

Translated copy (Sing Tao Daily, 1 March 2011)

After Chinese Railways Minister Liu Zhijun was removed, it has been revealed that China’s high-speed railway system, currently developing at breakneck speed, has been running at a loss of over RMB$1 trillion (about US$1,000 billion). There is also a host of safety risks related to rushed construction, lousy quality control of raw materials, insufficient time allowed for the settlement of railway sugrade, and allegedly shoddy work. A European specialist invited to China was said to have stormed out of a meeting, and a Chinese engineer has vowed to “never take China’s high-speed trains in my life”. The Chinese government is calling for a reassessment of the safety of high-speed railways.

Under Liu, the operational high-speed rail network has expanded to 4,670 kilometres by the end of 2010, half of which having a speed of 350 kilometres per hour. Last year, the network carried 800,000 passengers per day. The Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway, to be launched in June 2011, hit a world record of over 486 kilometres per hour during a trial run recently.

According to the Chinese website Caing.com, after Liu was removed, the State Council (the Chinese cabinet) has invited experts to several meetings to look at the safety of China’s high-speed railway. Eventually a range of safety issues were uncovered.

One expert said: “It usually takes 10 years to build a high-speed rail network in Europe. China took only two years. Rushed work schedule is a serious problem, which has given rise to a host of issues, including low quality of equipment.”

“Numerous lines and projects tend to be built at the same time, and demand for resources is massive,” said a supplier. Such demand can hardly be fulfilled even when factory workers work overtime, and the supply schedules have been compressed drastically. “Quality fails to meet the ambitions. Sometimes there’s even no time to do random check.”

Subgrade beneath all high-speed rail lines is normally subject to strict requirements. For all kinds of rails, it takes an average of five years for the subgrade to settle naturally. China, however, did not allow a single day for the settlement. Instead it got around the issue by building above-ground railways, or maximizing the lengths of straight rails. Experts say such methods put the security of the railway system in doubt.

Another problem has to do with the long line of production, stretched by the employment of numerous subcontractors in order to build a large number of high-speed railways within a short period of time. Many untrained migrant workers have been assigned to highly technical tasks.

The New York Times quoted a source from the Ministry of Railways as saying China’s high-speed railways have been built with insufficient chemical hardeners. In addition, the pillars supporting above-ground rails might have been jerry-built due to supply shortage in coal ash.

The Ministry of Railways has hired a supervisory engineer from Germany to conduct on-the-spot quality control. The specialist has reportedly urged railway managers and workers to slow down the speed of the trains, but no one heeded his call. He was said to have stormed out of a meeting.

Du Junxiao, head of the Sha’anxi bureau of state-run paper People’s Daily, said in his blog that an engineer of the Ministry Railways said before he retired that “I will never take China’s high-speed trains in my life”.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 05:10 AM   #2015
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Quote:
“I will never take China’s high-speed trains in my life”.
pls stop circulating ridiculous rumors around, especially the words from the mysterious ‘engineer’, whose colleague happened to be Du Junxiao's 'friend'. That Mr Du apparently knows nothing about engineering and science, as most if not all journalists in China. He claimed HSTs in China were unsafe because: 1. his friend told him that another dude told his friend so (huh, what a nice definition of rumor,eh?); 2. he took the high speed train once and saw a bird hit by the train, and the bird blood scared the crap out of him; he recalled he read some physics books when he was little saying if a watermelon hits a car at 80 km/h, it would be like a grenade. Holy shit, the train is moving at 350 km/h, and birds are hit by the train, so it must be unsafe!

I thought u had some reliable source, but turns out you are just referring to some sourceless stale claims.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 05:16 AM   #2016
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unlike metrofans, Ditiezu HSR subforum is alright, there are not many informative threads but there are sometimes people from factories such as CSR who can share some information.

ourail.com is pretty focused on the topic right now, but again all forum discussion are always not very credible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
It really is extremely difficult right now to give an exact reason as to why the HSLs are having their top-speed reduced and HSR programmes slowed. What people must realise is that the railways are a semi-military operation and are such subject to much heavier media cencorship than many other topics or industries, so railway-specialist forums like haise are (as good as) closed-down, and urban-rail forums with rail sections like metrofans told 'not to discuss HSR and Liu', the direct result of which is no facts, but hints, rumours and conjections swimming all over the place. You can automatically discount any mainstream media-source.

Some people say the move is purely political, others say it's to reduce operational cost and pave way for ticket price reductions. Quality issues due to hurried construction have been quoted too. I suspect it's a mixture of those reasons.
Is there any other possible reason?
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Old April 18th, 2011, 05:30 AM   #2017
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Russian President Medvedev on a CRH380A
credit: China Daily







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Old April 18th, 2011, 06:06 AM   #2018
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"Experts say shoddy materials were used to cut costs. According to a source for the New York Times, the concrete bases for the tracks were so cheaply made, with insufficient hardening agents that the tracks would warp in five years."

Beside China, only Germany and Japan have the technology of making concrete base for tracks. Where are the experts in the news/New York Times from? US? UK?

Look, the "experts" themselves don't even know how to make concrete base...then start to bullshitting on television
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Old April 18th, 2011, 06:23 AM   #2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toronto999 View Post
"Experts say shoddy materials were used to cut costs. According to a source for the New York Times, the concrete bases for the tracks were so cheaply made, with insufficient hardening agents that the tracks would warp in five years."

Beside China, only Germany and Japan have the technology of making concrete base for tracks. Where are the experts in the news/New York Times from? US? UK?

Look, the "experts" themselves don't even know how to make concrete base...then start to bullshitting on television
Auhh, technology of prefab concrete isn't cutting edge science and the US is very much ahead in concrete chemistry.
Its not that the US doesn't have the technology it's more to do with they have no use of concrete bases for tracks.

As for the Chinese tracks just wait for another five years or so then argue if it was sub par or not since the communist government is certainly not going to disclose anything that is going to discredit themselves.

As for cost of maintenance being higher for 380Km/h trains/tracks compared to 300km/h trains that is a fact based on physics since 380km trains/tracks are under higher strain due to higher energy transferal compared to 300km train/tracks resulting to more wear & tear.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 06:42 AM   #2020
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Some HST/HSR historical countries like France, Japan and Germany don't build with concrete. There is not sufficiant oberservations after years and years of tests, for using concrete on HSR.

The last technology in France, is to combined road technology and railway traditionnal technology. And they only began with a 3 km line on LGV Paris-Strasbourg for a 4 years study.

Such studies began in 1930 ! 1969 for USA, 1973 for UK.

How long are studies for concret railway ?

From moroccan forum and also High-Speed Railway Networks around The World

Quote:
Le tout nouveau procédé de grave-bitume de Colas ne sera peut-être (ou plutot probablement) pas utilisé.

Grave-bitume de Colas expérimenté sur 3km de la LGV Est



http://www.bitume.info/imports/DD/Bi10-Sous_ballast.pdf
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