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Old April 19th, 2011, 04:15 AM   #2041
BarbaricManchurian
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Considering the government's reliability vs. the anti-government people's, I'd say the government, but without proof we don't know anything (gov has delivered on most promises, while anti-gov people have been never true about predictions of China failing). Watch the discovery channel documentaries about CRH if you want to see evidence of China's commitment to quality in HSR, the engineers worked their asses off getting it to 380 km/h safely, tried out dozens of types of glass to see what can survive a bird impact at 380km/h, what makes you think they'd waste all this effort by cheaping out on the concrete quality? The low quality products of China are mostly private sector, public sector is generally high quality
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Old April 19th, 2011, 05:21 AM   #2042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaricManchurian View Post
Considering the government's reliability vs. the anti-government people's, I'd say the government, but without proof we don't know anything (gov has delivered on most promises, while anti-gov people have been never true about predictions of China failing). Watch the discovery channel documentaries about CRH if you want to see evidence of China's commitment to quality in HSR, the engineers worked their asses off getting it to 380 km/h safely, tried out dozens of types of glass to see what can survive a bird impact at 380km/h, what makes you think they'd waste all this effort by cheaping out on the concrete quality? The low quality products of China are mostly private sector, public sector is generally high quality
Hate to say this but the PRC high officials themselves have admitted that corruption within the government is hindering national progress.
Another problem is that with corruption, to regain the loss through bribes the contractors will use sub-par cheap material to cover the cost and generate profit.
I do not know if the 120 billion dollar amount is exaggerated but I think it is bliss of wishful thinking to even consider that material used are of the highest quality to construct. (Too many contractors, suppliers, sub-contractor, etc. involved developing the construction leaving too places where bribery and corruption could seep in even if Mr. Liu was innocent.)
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Old April 19th, 2011, 10:58 AM   #2043
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Guangzhou-Wuhan is now 3:16 at maximum 350 km/h.

Decreasing the top speed by 1/6, to 300 km/h, cannot add more than 33 minutes, giving 3:49. But unless acceleration is decreased, the average speed should become a bigger fraction of maximum, because the train should spend less time accelerating and decelerating.

What is your guesstimate for Guangzhou-Wuhan time on 1st of July?
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Old April 19th, 2011, 12:22 PM   #2044
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About Shanghai-Hangzhou HSR

Latest words are that top speed on Shanghai-Hangzhou HSR will remain 350km/h after July 1st. Beijing-Tianjin ICL won't be affected either. No official confirmation though.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 02:03 PM   #2045
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Of course, because all engineering is the same when you use concrete

You are one if the last people on this forum who should be patronising someone else about getting their facts straight.
So laughable.
Tell me what are the unique qualities you need for a special "magic" concrete mixture for HSR?
As I had posted before look up what pre-stressed pre-casted concrete slabs are.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 04:18 PM   #2046
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So laughable.
Tell me what are the unique qualities you need for a special "magic" concrete mixture for HSR?
I didn't say you needed a special concrete mixture. As always, completely missing the point of anything anyone says to you.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 09:51 PM   #2047
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idoits....

get back onto the real topic or leave the forum.
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Old April 20th, 2011, 04:16 AM   #2048
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Auhh, technology of prefab concrete isn't cutting edge science and the US is very much ahead in concrete chemistry.
Its not that the US doesn't have the technology it's more to do with they have no use of concrete bases for tracks.

As for the Chinese tracks just wait for another five years or so then argue if it was sub par or not since the communist government is certainly not going to disclose anything that is going to discredit themselves.

As for cost of maintenance being higher for 380Km/h trains/tracks compared to 300km/h trains that is a fact based on physics since 380km trains/tracks are under higher strain due to higher energy transferal compared to 300km train/tracks resulting to more wear & tear.
Having the ability to develop some kind of technology does not equal to having some kind of technology and know inside and out of this type of technology.

It's a logical mistake to say they are equal.

US clearly has the ability to develop ballastless track technology, but US currently doesn't have this technology. This means the unknown experts who don't even know this technology inside-and-out were bullshitting on NY times.
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Old April 20th, 2011, 05:05 AM   #2049
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Hasn't Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) had ballastless track since the early 70's?
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Old April 20th, 2011, 05:15 AM   #2050
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Hasn't Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) had ballastless track since the early 70's?
of course not the kind of ballastless track for 350-380 km/h train

what's the speed of Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART)? any where close to 300 km/h, half of that or one third of that?
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Old April 20th, 2011, 09:14 PM   #2051
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what's the speed of Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART)? any where close to 300 km/h, half of that or one third of that?
It is a commuter rail line, so the speeds hardly exceeds 110-120kmph.
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Old April 20th, 2011, 10:10 PM   #2052
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It is a commuter rail line, so the speeds hardly exceeds 110-120kmph.
yeah.. ridden on it a few times... max speed on the speedometers averages out at 66-68 mph (106 km/h - 109 km/h)
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Old April 21st, 2011, 10:05 AM   #2053
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Luxury seats coming out of bullet trains
Updated: 2011-04-21 08:23
By Tan Zongyang and Wu Yiyao (China Daily)

BEIJING - Luxury seats will be missing from many of the fast trains that will soon travel on a high-speed railway running from Beijing to Shanghai, giving passengers more room and making the ride cheaper, railway sources were quoted as saying.

Beijing Daily quoted an anonymous source from the railway sector on Wednesday as saying that luxury seats are being removed from most of the bullet trains. The trains are to begin running on the high-speed railway in June.

Previous reports had said that bullet trains, which will race along a 1,318-km-long railway, will be equipped with seats and other accommodations meant to ensure business travelers can travel in luxury, comfort and privacy.

As planned, the trains will contain cars used to cater to honored guests, or VIPs, as well as private cabins with seats that can be made into flat beds.

The inclusion of luxury seats similar to the first-class seats found on airplanes was once proposed as a means of drawing affluent travelers away from the airlines that fly between the country's top two metropolises.

But not all are attracted by the idea of the accommodations. Rather than luxury, many people have been clamoring for more affordable public transport.

Early this year, fast trains linking Shanghai and Chengdu in Sichuan province started to sell tickets giving travelers a berth in a luxurious sleeper car. The price of a single trip in the car came to 2,330 yuan ($357), a cost that prompted complaints of extravagance.

As a result, some of the luxury sleeping cars were removed in March. Regular seats were installed in their place, giving more passengers a cheaper ride.

Zhao Jian, a transport professor at Beijing Jiaotong University, praised the decision to respond to market demands by removing luxury seats from many of the trains that will travel the new railway between Beijing and Shanghai.

"The luxury cars on many of the existing high-speed lines have low occupancy rates, which is a huge waste," he said.

Without luxury seats, the trains will transport more passengers, leading to higher revenues from ticket sales, he said.

The publicity department with the Ministry of Railways declined to comment on the news on Wednesday. For his part, the new railway minister, Sheng Guangzu, has shown resolve to make the high-speed railway service more "satisfactory to the people".

He said the high-speed railway between Beijing and Shanghai will operate at a slower maximum speed than first planned - at 300 kilometers an hour, giving passengers a safer and more affordable ride.

To further save money, passengers can also choose to ride in a train that has a maximum speed of 250 km/h.

The string of changes, even though they will make trains run slower, has been well received by travelers.

"Although the trains will run a little bit slower, flights can be severely delayed," said Ge Bozhi, a 42-year-old businessman from Shanghai.

"So I will definitely take the train as soon as it starts to run."

Others thought the railway department should do more.

Yang Jianjun, a 35-year-old consultant, said he hoped the trains can be improved in ways needed to attract those who usually travel by air. The food on some high-speed trains, for instance, could certainly be made better, he said.

"Travelers expect catering and services that match the reputation of the trains," he said.
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Old April 21st, 2011, 12:53 PM   #2054
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Luxury seats coming out of bullet trains
Updated: 2011-04-21 08:23
By Tan Zongyang and Wu Yiyao (China Daily)

BEIJING - Luxury seats will be missing from many of the fast trains that will soon travel on a high-speed railway running from Beijing to Shanghai, giving passengers more room and making the ride cheaper, railway sources were quoted as saying.

Beijing Daily quoted an anonymous source from the railway sector on Wednesday as saying that luxury seats are being removed from most of the bullet trains. The trains are to begin running on the high-speed railway in June.
A stupid move. See explanation below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
The inclusion of luxury seats similar to the first-class seats found on airplanes was once proposed as a means of drawing affluent travelers away from the airlines that fly between the country's top two metropolises.

But not all are attracted by the idea of the accommodations. Rather than luxury, many people have been clamoring for more affordable public transport.

Early this year, fast trains linking Shanghai and Chengdu in Sichuan province started to sell tickets giving travelers a berth in a luxurious sleeper car. The price of a single trip in the car came to 2,330 yuan ($357), a cost that prompted complaints of extravagance.
On Saturday, 23th, http://www.travelchinaguide.com/chin...ightSearch.asp found 47 direct flights Beijing-Shanghai, lasting between 1:55 and 2:15. Economy prices are Y1180...Y1290. But "First Class" tickets are typically Y2990. Somebody buys those.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Zhao Jian, a transport professor at Beijing Jiaotong University, praised the decision to respond to market demands by removing luxury seats from many of the trains that will travel the new railway between Beijing and Shanghai.

"The luxury cars on many of the existing high-speed lines have low occupancy rates, which is a huge waste," he said.
The better answer is to remove only the unused luxury seats, and leave in place suitable numbers of luxury seats according to actual demand.
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Others thought the railway department should do more.

Yang Jianjun, a 35-year-old consultant, said he hoped the trains can be improved in ways needed to attract those who usually travel by air. The food on some high-speed trains, for instance, could certainly be made better, he said.

"Travelers expect catering and services that match the reputation of the trains," he said.
Look at it this way: what is the "First Class" like on a domestic narrowbody airplane like 737 or 320?

Air China 737-s and 320-s have just 8 First Class Seats - 2 rows of 4 abreast - except 321 has 12 seats. These few First seats take up the space of perhaps 3 or 4 rows of economy seats, like 18 or 24 seats.

So a train could have, not several First Class cars, and not even a single first class car, but a first class section taking up perhaps a half or a quarter of one car. The rest of that car could be second class or restaurant car.

This would be much better than no first class seats at all. Because if many trains have no first class, businesspeople who want first class would have to seek out the few trains that do have first class. And then they might simply not bother and get on the next plane.

A big advantage of train over plane is that in plane, people have to buckle up on takeoff, landing and turbulence and shut electronic devices. Whereas in a train they could sit at tables, use laptops, papers and cellphones all the time from sitting down to getting up. Provided they do have the space for tables and stretching legs, and internet and cellphone connection.

So there would be a good advantage in providing modest but consistent and reliable service, that people could walk up to Hongqiao airport and hop on the next train.
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Old April 21st, 2011, 07:20 PM   #2055
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I have to say, luxury seats are quite attractive on long haul HSR than on intercity lines. For example, most people only choose first class seating on the Nanjing-Shanghai PDL when second class seats are sold out. I wish that while curbing the development of HSR, CAAC will really improve the quality of air travel in China, that way they just may be able to find the perfect balance between the two.
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Old April 21st, 2011, 08:30 PM   #2056
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The problem is that there isn't much difference between the first and second class seats. Having all second class seats, where the demand is, is a smart move imo, even having slower trains is fine, but they should still offer the 350 or 380 km/h service, for a higher price
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Old April 21st, 2011, 11:12 PM   #2057
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The problem is that there isn't much difference between the first and second class seats. Having all second class seats, where the demand is, is a smart move imo,
The difference between first and second class is not that big on planes either. See the small first class of Air China 757:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-C...2Z0/1679068/L/
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Old April 22nd, 2011, 01:36 AM   #2058
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@chornedsnorkack, I think you're kinda missing the point.
".... saying that luxury seats are being removed from most of the bullet trains...."

At no point do they say they will completely get rid of all first class cars.
And I welcome this move, as really, keeping those seats is a waste. When demand surges and people start to fill out those business seats, they can reinstall the remaining luxury seats. But until then, you just don't need 'em.
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Old April 22nd, 2011, 04:46 AM   #2059
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This report once again shows the decisions about high speed network are political. I feel they are trying to make bullet trains more "poor friendly" so creating a more "harmonious" population, PLUS (a big plus) trying to protect airlines.

I bet upon another round of change in political figures we can easily see a desire to increase the speed.
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Old April 22nd, 2011, 05:44 AM   #2060
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Any idea which station this is?
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