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Old June 9th, 2011, 09:19 PM   #2321
laojang
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Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
no free health care, no pensions, no wars or occupations, protectionism, endless workforce, no regard for workers rights or other externalities, devalued currency and a planning office should help
welcome troll,go learn some basic economics before commenting.
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Let's don't get too emotional on these and stick to facts. Here is my take on gramercy's
suggestions.

1. "no free health care" ? partly right, the government pays about 50-60% through basic insurance.

2. "no pensions", totally wrong.

3. "no wars or occupations", totally right

4. "devalued currency", technically wrong. 15 years ago, one US $ was about 8+ RMB,
now, it is 6+ RMB. So on paper, the Chinese currency increased in value.

5. "no regard for workers rights or other externalities",partly right but it is improving.

I think other forumers also make a good points on spending in social security and health
care. Also the shift away from manufacturing in the rich countries did not help. Industrial production in the West account for less than 20% of so called GDP, while that
figure is around 50% in China. For example China produced 40-50% of the world's steel and concrete, that makes these things readily available for HSL and highways.

Laojang
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Old June 9th, 2011, 09:41 PM   #2322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asif iqbal View Post
Can someone please tell me where the hell China gets so much money to make these projects? why cant other countrys do this? I mean they just make it look so freggin easy!
US has about $700 billion annual military spending, the Chinese annual HSR investment is about $100 billion, so yeah other countries can do it, but just have to make compromises.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 12:53 AM   #2323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
no free health care, no pensions, no wars or occupations, protectionism, endless workforce, no regard for workers rights or other externalities, devalued currency and a planning office should help
assuming everything you said about China is correct, there are quite a few countries fitting the description you just gave, why haven't they started building HSR even if they really want it?

your arguments are simply too weak on this issue.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 12:54 AM   #2324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laojang View Post
Money is a relative concept. The average Chinese is very poor when measured
by the so called GDP, comparing with rich countries. But GDP is just some inaccurate and relative concept which are not always comparable between different countries. One factor is that in China labors and raw materials are relatively cheap, so a nominally small amount of money can go long way. The second
factor is Chinese people and government usually have a much higher saving rate in cash. In contrast people and governments in the West usually have much
more money on paper (GDP, etc), but they also have much more debt.

Laojang
PPP is comparable between countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity). In economics, both nominal GDP and PPP are widely used.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 01:21 AM   #2325
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the first proposal of a HSR between Beijing-Shanghai was made in 1990. It has been through so many debates and the project didn't get okayed before 2006. Money has always been a big problem for it before it was approved. In the early 90's China could barely afford 90 billion Yuan for the Three Gorge Dam project, and it had to encourage citizens to donate for the Asian Games in Beijing (the budget was 2 billion Yuan in 1990).

The size of Chinese economy has grown many folds since 1990, and that is the only reason that China has the financial ability to build HSRs. And the policy that enabled the central government to get and then use the money is the tax-sharing system (reformed from the previous revenue-sharing system).

factors such as low cost (material, land or labor) and financial crisis stimulus packages are reasons why the government chooses to build HSRs now, they are not really reasons why the government can build them.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 01:28 AM   #2326
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Some fact on PRC's HSR projects, the total construction budget for rail for 2011 is 745.5 billion RMB or US$115.11 billion in today's exchange rate.
The debt up to 2009 for all HSR construction is 1.3 trillion RMB or US$200 billion.
The Shanghai-Beijing HSR route construction cost total is estimated to be 220.9 billion RMB or US$34.1 billion and half of cost is procured from bank loans.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 01:44 AM   #2327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincent View Post
PPP is comparable between countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity). In economics, both nominal GDP and PPP are widely used.
PPP is not exactly very useful, let alone accurate for many countries. The famous informal 'big-Mac index' for instance only works in countries with similar western fast food culture. The formal concept of PPP also has a lot of limits. In short there is no easy universal way to compare different economies.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 04:34 AM   #2328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenwen View Post
In my opinion,China and develpoed countries are in two different phase of development stage.China use most of the resources on infrastructures and development to continue the current growth,whereas developed countries allocate most of their resources in social security as their infrastructure are more developed,and once a country spend more money on social security,it would be hard to reverse,cuz pr problems will arise from that,so Europe and USA find it hard to get money to build such project.
correction:

in Europe spend is in wellfare state while in US it;s in wars and "defense".
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Old June 10th, 2011, 09:11 AM   #2329
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Can anyone have a picture of different type design for CRH Train just like i see in the video, they made different model scale to identify what is the best design for next CRH train.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 01:09 PM   #2330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenwen View Post
I think the government currently are doing great at making the tax revenue spent on more efficient way.If most money goes to education,health care,social sercurity like developed countries, it would be hard for goverment to implement high growth policy,so a gradual increase of wealth fare and high economic growth is much better than most money spend on wealth fare which will be crap with such lil money for 1.3billion ppl and less growth.
Actually, if more money is spent on health care and education, more GDP will be generated. You have to understand, at the hospitals, they need to hire highly trained healthcare personnels. Those are much higher paid jobs than those in factories. The healthcare and education sectors provide services and allow the economy to move from export manufacturing to consumer services oriented.

The education sector delivers services to students. Schools and universities need to train staff for the healthcare sector. Again, more professors need to be hired to train new doctors, nurses and teachers. These are much higher paid jobs than those in the factories.

Last edited by maldini; June 10th, 2011 at 01:15 PM.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 01:13 PM   #2331
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Originally Posted by NCT View Post
It's more politics than economics that explains the massive boom in HSR in China.
That's not true at all. The old railway system cannot cope with both passenger and freight traffic. So the new highspeed railway is much needed to handle passenger traffic. When more capacity on the old railway is dedicated to freight traffic, the economic benefit will be huge.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 01:38 PM   #2332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maldini View Post
That's not true at all. The old railway system cannot cope with both passenger and freight traffic. So the new highspeed railway is much needed to handle passenger traffic. When more capacity on the old railway is dedicated to freight traffic, the economic benefit will be huge.
It's also important to see the planning strategy of the Chinese government. Just like everywhere else (urbanization, nuclear energy program, transport etc.) it's a long-term investment with benefits coming over the long-term and not necessarily straight away. We don't know yet how that will turn into numbers but there is a good reason to believe that it will be very good. If you want a dynamic and robust economy you must be able to move stuff (including people and goods) around quickly and efficiently. It's just common sense I guess.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 01:52 PM   #2333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maldini View Post
That's not true at all. The old railway system cannot cope with both passenger and freight traffic. So the new highspeed railway is much needed to handle passenger traffic. When more capacity on the old railway is dedicated to freight traffic, the economic benefit will be huge.
You and kenwen misunderstand me. Perhaps I should have made myself clearer - no-one doubts there's the economic necessity to build an HSR network, but the unprecedented pace of construction is very much down to the political system of 领导一句话.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 02:56 PM   #2334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asif iqbal View Post
so is the Shanghai-Beijing high speed railway now up and running if fo how much is the ticket?>
Sorry that nobody bothered to answer so far.

It is not running. Scheduled services are due to start on 20th instant.

Are the tickets for sale now? If not, when shall they come to sale?
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Old June 10th, 2011, 08:34 PM   #2335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Sorry that nobody bothered to answer so far.

It is not running. Scheduled services are due to start on 20th instant.

Are the tickets for sale now? If not, when shall they come to sale?
Thank!
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Old June 10th, 2011, 10:08 PM   #2336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Sorry that nobody bothered to answer so far.

It is not running. Scheduled services are due to start on 20th instant.

Are the tickets for sale now? If not, when shall they come to sale?
change of plan: commercial service is scheduled to start on June 28th, if there is no further delay. (probably won't, as they will definitely open it before July 1st)

as for the price and ticket sale, if no one has posted any news from reliable sources, that means it is not disclosed yet.
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Old June 12th, 2011, 10:01 AM   #2337
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Beijing-Shanghai HSR Changzhou North Station 常州北站

construction pics by wmss @bbs.xiangshu.com







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Old June 12th, 2011, 10:27 AM   #2338
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online ticketing service starts today, 11 years after the first such system was abandoned in 2000.

The online ticketing service is currently only available for Beijing-Tianjin ICL, and will be available for Beijing-Shanghai HSR by the end of this month. It will be used for all railways by the end of this year.

ticketing website:
http://www.12306.cn/mormhweb/


For the current service, one of four types of IDs (PRC I.D., HK/Macau residents pass, Taiwan residents pass, or passport) is required to order the train tickets.

Only UnionPay cards (with online banking) are accepted.

Second-generation I.D. card can be directly used as a ticket by scanning at the gate:


more info
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Old June 12th, 2011, 10:57 AM   #2339
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Beijing-Shanghai HSR Bridges

Cross Yellow River in Ji'nan

by 渭南老陕



Cross Yangtze River in Nanjing

by 老茆 (with Third Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge in the background)


Quote:
Originally Posted by General Huo View Post
Dashengguan Bridge

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Old June 12th, 2011, 11:05 AM   #2340
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Datong-Xi'an HSR (Shanxi Province-Shaanxi Province)

cross Yellow River section under construction

pic by 光影梦

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