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Old June 14th, 2011, 01:15 PM   #2381
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Beijing-Shanghai HSR timetable

http://kb.dsqq.cn/page/1/2011-06/14/...0614F8_pdf.pdf

source: http://kb.dsqq.cn/html/2011-06/14/node_48.htm
(this is a newspaper by Xinhua agency, so it is a reliable source.)

Fare table

http://www.china-mor.gov.cn/xwzx/xwf...2447038627.pdf

source: MOR
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Old June 14th, 2011, 02:00 PM   #2382
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In an ideal world, even 380km/h trains could be made affordable for low-income travellers, simply by running more trains making each train's share of the fixed costs lower, and this is possible given the current high demands of rail, air and road travel along the route. You could even introduce variable ticketing, where advance purchase and off-peak trains are cheaper, and virtually no-one will lose out. What's politically popular and what's economically optimal don't always go against each other, but the politicians know better ...
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Old June 14th, 2011, 08:55 PM   #2383
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2. Journey time. In terms of raw travel time, planes rarely use more than 2 hours, so HSR suffers by about 3 hours. It is true that Beijing South Station is much better located than Beijing Capital airport, so taking the train saves about 30 minutes (journey time taken by the airport express). At the Shanghai end though, the station and airport are at the same place, so there's no time saving there. The boarding process on Chinese railways is almost as cumbersome as on airlines so time saving wouldn't exceed 15 minutes. There's no baggage reclaim upon arrival though, so that's another 15 minutes or so saved. You are still looking at HSR being 2 hours slower, but airline punctuality is a bit of a joke, so there's still hope.
At Chinese airports you have to check in at least 30 minutes ahead of the departure time, and taking security lines into consideration you better arrive at least 45 minutes to an hour early just to make sure you don't miss the flight. Also both PEK and SHA are known to have frequent delays, I would say on average the delay will be 30 minutes. I flew three times on this route and the shortest delay is 1 hour and longest 2.5 hours (they don't compensate you unless the delay is 3 hours and above). In terms of HSR, not only there is virtually no delay, but I rarely has to arrive more than 15 minutes early at the station.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 01:56 AM   #2384
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
So, as of now, the ticket prices, trip times and number of trains have been disclosed, but not actual departure times.

On which day is actual sale of tickets for trains of 28th June due to start?

Also, shall any trains travel Beijing-Shanghai high speed line and continue beyond, such as Beijing-Hangzhou?
I think the last sentence from this quote answer your question.

• 胡亚东:
6.第一次实行两种速度等级混跑和两种票价的运行模式。为最大限度方便沿线人民群众的出行,给旅客以充分的选择,在京沪高铁运营初期,我们计划每天安排开行动车组列车90对,实行时速300和250公里两种速度等级混跑的列车开行模式。如果你乘坐时速300公里动车组列车,从北京到上海最短旅行时间仅4小时48分;如果乘坐时速250公里动车组列车,从北京到上海全程最短时间为7小时56分,比现有京沪线最快的时速250公里动车组列车运行时间压缩2小时。京沪高铁沿线省会车站都有始发列车开行。同时开行跨其他铁路线运行的列车,比如北京南~福州、上海虹桥~青岛、天津西~杭州、郑州~济南等等。
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Old June 15th, 2011, 02:27 AM   #2385
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When you look at those train stations they look more like airports than train stations (IMO). Still in the idea to compete with travels by plane.
I really don't think it was their intention to have HSR compete with air travel. It was intended to replace regular rail, bumping passengers upmarket. But it's too expensive for workers, who apparently are now using buses and worsening traffic. And then, people who were using planes are now riding HSR.

So, instead of going upmarket, they are going downmarket.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 05:41 AM   #2386
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I really don't think it was their intention to have HSR compete with air travel. It was intended to replace regular rail, bumping passengers upmarket. But it's too expensive for workers, who apparently are now using buses and worsening traffic. And then, people who were using planes are now riding HSR.

So, instead of going upmarket, they are going downmarket.
Well, that is progress. HSR is just another mode of transport that provides good competition to the airline industry. With wages going up as China develop further, more people can also afford to use them. Anyway those who can't afford, do have the options of using long distance buses and slow trains.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 05:44 AM   #2387
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Originally Posted by TheAnalyst View Post
I really don't think it was their intention to have HSR compete with air travel. It was intended to replace regular rail, bumping passengers upmarket. But it's too expensive for workers, who apparently are now using buses and worsening traffic. And then, people who were using planes are now riding HSR.

So, instead of going upmarket, they are going downmarket.
Riding bus is more expensive than riding HSR in China
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Old June 15th, 2011, 07:31 AM   #2388
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Full steam ahead for rail projects

By Xin Dingding (China Daily)
Updated: 2011-06-14

BEIJING - China's railway development will not slow down in the 12th Five-Year Plan period (2011-2015), Vice-Minister of Railways Hu Yadong said on Monday. Railway planning for the five years aims to put 30,000 kilometers of new lines into operation, which is 87.5 percent more than for the 2006-2010 period, Hu said. By 2015, the country's total length of railways will be more than 120,000 km, up from the current 91,000 km, he said. The total investment in railways during the five years will be 2.8 trillion yuan ($432 billion), an increase of 41.4 percent from 2006-2010, according to Hu.

Yu Bangli, chief economist with the ministry, said that although financing for railways, like that for other industries, is subject to the impact of the macro-economic environment, "funds for railways can be guaranteed". Based on these facts and figures, Hu said: "China's railway development will maintain a fast pace. Our pace will not slow down, and the investment will not be reduced." But he did not mention any changes to previous plans for China's high-speed railways.

The ministry said in January that China's high-speed rail network had reached 8,358 km at the end of 2010 and is expected to exceed 13,000 km by 2012 and 16,000 km by 2020. High-speed railways are incorporated as part of the country's "express railway network", which is expected to reach 45,000 km in length by 2015. The express railway network includes railways of three speeds - arterial rail lines at a speed of 300 km/h, intercity and extension and linking lines at 200-250 km/h, and railways in western China with speeds of 160-200 km/h. But the ministry could not yet provide any figures for the length of such a network.

However, it is clear that the previous pattern of high-speed railway development has been changed following the fall of former minister Liu Zhijun, who was investigated for "serious disciplinary violations". Railways Minister Sheng Guangzu, who replaced Liu in February, made it clear in April that railway development should not outpace demand too much. He stressed in an interview with the People's Daily in April that the future work arrangement will give priority to ongoing projects to ensure they have enough funds for construction to be completed and will emphasize projects that are in urgent demand.

Since those comments, construction schedules for some railway projects have been altered. Wang Yongping, the ministry spokesman, said in May that a few railway projects under construction, which were slated to be completed this year, will not be finished until next year. This caused this year's investment in railway construction to be slashed by 100 billion yuan to 600 billion yuan. Adjustments to some projects that had shortened construction time too much are reasonable, Wang said.

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Old June 15th, 2011, 07:38 AM   #2389
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High-speed rail link set for launch

By Xin Dingding (China Daily)
Updated: 2011-06-14

All systems go for Beijing-Shanghai project as ticket prices announced

BEIJING - The high-speed railway linking Beijing to Shanghai, which will open later this month, is safe and reliable and the reduction in operating speed is to maximize efficiency, rail authorities said on Monday. Hu Yadong, vice-minister of railways, told a news conference that all systems are go for the line's opening.

The Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway is a landmark project. "Its technology is advanced, its quality reliable and safety guaranteed. It is completely ready for operation and will open in late June," Hu said. Tickets for the journey between China's top two cities will range from 410 yuan to 1,750 yuan ($63 to $270), depending on the train's designated speed and seat category. Tickets will be sold online a week before the formal launch date. The 1,318-km line will run 90 pairs of trains daily. These will travel at either 300 km/h or 250 km/h. The fastest travel time between the two cities will be four hours and 48 minutes, or about half the time trains currently take.

The ministry had previously considered cutting the travel time to just four hours by running trains at a top speed of 380 km/h. Speed cuts will also be introduced on other rail routes. Starting July 1, several high-speed railways, including the lines linking Wuhan and Guangzhou, Zhengzhou and Xi'an, and Shanghai and Nanjing, will see train speeds reduced from 350 km/h to 300 km/h. Trains that run at 250 km/h will be added to these lines to meet diversified needs. The speed cut is in line with a nationwide directive made public in April that said all high-speed trains must run at a slower pace than previously announced - no faster than 300 km/h - to make journeys safer.

The directive followed a major corruption scandal in February when then railways minister, Liu Zhijun, was dismissed after an investigation into serious disciplinary violations. It raised concerns over the costs and safety of high-speed rail links. Hu rejected speculation that operating speed had been slashed because high-speed railways were unsafe or unreliable. He said that the decision was due to maximizing efficiency.

The high-speed railway was built according to the technical standards of travel at 350 km/h, and all test runs were conducted at 350 km/h, he said.
During the test period, from November to May 10, trains covered a length of more than 600,000 km, and a one-month trial operation that commenced on May 11 has seen trains covering a total length of 2 million km. The technical reliability of the line, as measured by international criteria, is world class, he said. "But when we decided on its commercial operating speed, we took into account economic efficiency."

The vice-minister said that the railway will operate a dual-speed system with the slower trains making way for faster ones. The bigger the speed gap (between two types of trains), the greater the impact on the line's operating efficiency, he said. The ministry found that running trains at 350 km/h and 250 km/h on the same line will be 20 percent less efficient than operating trains traveling at 300 km/h and 250 km/h. The ministry also took energy consumption, the wear and tear on tracks and rolling stock, into consideration, Hu said.

The ministry is taking every measure to ensure the line's safety. Maintenance workers will spend four hours checking the tracks every night. Two passenger-free trains will travel the line every morning to conduct safety checks before trains with passengers get the green light. A monitoring system that recognizes any abnormalities, such as extreme weather or earthquakes, will alert the railway's power and signal systems and force trains to slow down or even stop. The railway also has a protective fence, 2.85 meters high, to prevent people or large animals getting onto the tracks. Other high-speed railways have fences ranging from 1.8 meters to 2.5 meters tall. A patrol guard will be stationed every kilometer along the line to look for safety hazards. Passenger security checks at the 24 stations along the line will also be upgraded, Hu said.

The railway is expected to draw some passengers from the lucrative Beijing-Shanghai air route. But a marketing manager with Air China surnamed He said on Monday that airlines are not likely to give bigger discounts but will make greater efforts to guarantee punctuality. While airlines might lose passengers initially, they are confident of winning them back. "People might like to try a new mode of transport," Zhu Qingyu, head of the marketing department at China Air Transport Association, said. "No doubt some passengers might like to try the fast train, but they will make a firm choice over time.

"As long as China's economy is booming and the demand for travel is increasing, neither airlines nor the high-speed railway need to worry about passenger flow." Ma Xulun, general manager of China Eastern, told Shanghai-based China Business News that the railway will take 20 to 30 percent of airline passengers over the next six months, but the long-term influence will be less severe.

A poll on Weibo.com of 1,000 netizens showed that, as of Monday evening, 74 percent of respondents believed ticket prices for the high-speed railway were too high, while 16 percent said the prices were reasonable. Li Jiaxiang, head of the Civil Aviation Administration of China, said earlier that to compete with the high-speed railway, airport procedure will be streamlined to cut passenger travel time and efforts will be made to reduce flight delays.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 09:07 AM   #2390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANR View Post
By Xin Dingding (China Daily)
Updated: 2011-06-14
image hosted on flickr
I wonder if the reporters had adequate primary school math education.
damn it, 4 hrs 48 minutes does not equal 4.48 hours.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 11:27 AM   #2391
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Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
At Chinese airports you have to check in at least 30 minutes ahead of the departure time, and taking security lines into consideration you better arrive at least 45 minutes to an hour early just to make sure you don't miss the flight. Also both PEK and SHA are known to have frequent delays, I would say on average the delay will be 30 minutes. I flew three times on this route and the shortest delay is 1 hour and longest 2.5 hours (they don't compensate you unless the delay is 3 hours and above). In terms of HSR, not only there is virtually no delay, but I rarely has to arrive more than 15 minutes early at the station.
If the waiting time is not long, how come these railway stations have large waiting halls?
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Old June 15th, 2011, 01:43 PM   #2392
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Jinghu PDL

G Trains (300km/h)
Beijing South - Shanghai Hongqiao (1 stop at Nanjing South) 2 pairs /day 4h 48m
Beijing South - Shanghai Hongqiao (2 stops at Jinan West and Nanjing South) 6 pairs / day 4h 55m
Beijing South - Hangzhou 5 pairs / day fastest 5h 24m
Tianjin West - Hangzhou 2 pairs / day
Jinan West - Hangzhou 1 pair / day
Beijing South - Shanghai Hongqiao General G Trains, 33 pairs /day fastest 5h 23m
Beijing South - Nanjing South 3 pairs / day
Tianjin West - Shanghai Hongqiao 3 pairs / day
Qingdao - Shanghai Hongqiao 4 pairs / day

D trains (250km/h)
Beijing South - Shanghai Hongqiao 4 pairs / day fastest 8h 44m
Beijing South - Nanjing South 1 pair / day
Jinan West - Shanghai Hongqiao 2 pairs / day
Beijing - Fuzhou 1 pair /day
Xuzhou East - Wenzhou South 1 pair / day
Xuzhou East - Shanghai Hongqiao 2 pairs / day
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Old June 15th, 2011, 08:31 PM   #2393
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If the waiting time is not long, how come these railway stations have large waiting halls?
Because there are so many lines and the trains are so frequent. For example, the current Shanghai Station (not south) is just way too crowded that people riding HSR can't even find seats when waiting. Each departuring halls has several isles of seats, each has a display that shows its respective train, if I arrive too early then I don't even have a designated seating area, when the previous train leaves people will populate the seats immediately. I believe in new HSR stations this problem will be eliminated with the huge waiting halls. At least people won't have to crowd it like a fricken farmers market.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 08:32 PM   #2394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laojang View Post
MOR only says " open by the end of June". Assuming the usual practice,
tickets should be on sale next week (about 10 days in advance).
According to unofficial time table, there will be trains from BJ to Hangzhou.


Laojang
looks like ticket sale is 1 week before the opening


• 胡亚东:
京沪高速在开通的时候,就同步实行网上售票。具体方式就是京沪高速的车票销售的同时就开始进行网上的售票。现在初步考虑,要在京沪高铁开通之前的一周,就要预售车票。预售车票的时候,就可以通过网上购到车票。
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Old June 15th, 2011, 08:39 PM   #2395
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Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Because there are so many lines and the trains are so frequent. For example, the current Shanghai Station (not south) is just way too crowded that people riding HSR can't even find seats when waiting. Each departuring halls has several isles of seats, each has a display that shows its respective train, if I arrive too early then I don't even have a designated seating area, when the previous train leaves people will populate the seats immediately. I believe in new HSR stations this problem will be eliminated with the huge waiting halls. At least people won't have to crowd it like a fricken farmers market.
In addition to your points, I believe the scale of the station and all its facilities (including the waiting hall) accounted for future demand growth. In other words, the station should easily meet the demand for the next 20-30 years, and they are building it now in one phase. Another reason is that the waiting hall account for extreme overflow condition like during the chinese new year. If there are typhoon in the area, probably most flights are canceled, and people will use the high speed railroad. That would cause a huge surge in demand as well.

In a country with huge population and huge economic growth, you just want to make sure that your new infrastructure (highway, airport, high speed rail etc) won't be outpaced by demand 5-10 years down the road. I think the country has learned the lessons from past experiences. It make sense to pick the most optimistic forecast and over-design your infrastructure a bit.

Last edited by vincent; June 15th, 2011 at 08:46 PM.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 08:41 PM   #2396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Because there are so many lines and the trains are so frequent. For example, the current Shanghai Station (not south) is just way too crowded that people riding HSR can't even find seats when waiting. Each departuring halls has several isles of seats, each has a display that shows its respective train, if I arrive too early then I don't even have a designated seating area, when the previous train leaves people will populate the seats immediately. I believe in new HSR stations this problem will be eliminated with the huge waiting halls. At least people won't have to crowd it like a fricken farmers market.
But surely the idea of HSR is that trains are turn-up-and-go and waiting time is short enough not to NEED a seated waiting hall?! Why not simply get rid of the waiting stage altogether and and send passengers straight onto the platform? With platforms so wide I'm fairly certain there's room for a few benches and even some enclosed waiting rooms. Hell even Birmingham New Street manages that.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 09:13 PM   #2397
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Quote:
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But surely the idea of HSR is that trains are turn-up-and-go and waiting time is short enough not to NEED a seated waiting hall?! Why not simply get rid of the waiting stage altogether and and send passengers straight onto the platform? With platforms so wide I'm fairly certain there's room for a few benches and even some enclosed waiting rooms. Hell even Birmingham New Street manages that.
not feasible at this moment.

think about the waiting hall at Shanghai Hongqiao or Guangzhou South during the spring festival. if all passengers were designated to wait on the platforms, there could be serious safety issues, especially when both passengers and the authorities have no experience of doing that. and you understand how people think in China, if passengers on slow conventional lines get to wait in seated waiting halls while those riding HSRs (paying higher price and all) do not have seats on the platforms, then all hell breaks loose.

in the long run, they should reduce the waiting area and replace with more shops and other facilities, especially for those stations specifically serving ICLs .
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Old June 15th, 2011, 09:15 PM   #2398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlion View Post
Beijing South - Shanghai Hongqiao General G Trains, 33 pairs /day fastest 5h 23m
How many stops do they make in 5:23?
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlion View Post
Qingdao - Shanghai Hongqiao 4 pairs / day
No Qingdao-Beijing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlion View Post
D trains (250km/h)
Beijing - Fuzhou 1 pair /day
What shall the Beijing-Fuzhou trip time be?
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Old June 15th, 2011, 09:23 PM   #2399
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At Chinese airports you have to check in at least 30 minutes ahead of the departure time, and taking security lines into consideration you better arrive at least 45 minutes to an hour early just to make sure you don't miss the flight. Also both PEK and SHA are known to have frequent delays, I would say on average the delay will be 30 minutes. I flew three times on this route and the shortest delay is 1 hour and longest 2.5 hours (they don't compensate you unless the delay is 3 hours and above). In terms of HSR, not only there is virtually no delay, but I rarely has to arrive more than 15 minutes early at the station.
15 minutes sound too optimistic to me at this moment. maybe it works for short lines with frequent trains such as Beijing-Tianjin ICL, or if you have already bought the ticket. When online booking for all railways are available, then 15 minutes should be fine.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 09:45 PM   #2400
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not feasible at this moment.

think about the waiting hall at Shanghai Hongqiao or Guangzhou South during the spring festival. if all passengers were designated to wait on the platforms, there could be serious safety issues, especially when both passengers and the authorities have no experience of doing that. and you understand how people think in China, if passengers on slow conventional lines get to wait in seated waiting halls while those riding HSRs (paying higher price and all) do not have seats on the platforms, then all hell breaks loose.

in the long run, they should reduce the waiting area and replace with more shops and other facilities, especially for those stations specifically serving ICLs .
There won't be conventional trains at Shanghai Hongqiao or Guangzhou South because the signalling there is especially designed for HSRs.

It's not about how people think, its about how MOR operates. If people have the choice of getting straight onto the platform and straight onto the next train, then they won't go red in the face and shout 'I've paid high price for this so it's my right to waste 30 minutes of my time in the waiting hall'. It's just a long-distance metro system.
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