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Old June 16th, 2011, 08:05 PM   #2421
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Originally Posted by NCT View Post
But they don't have huge waiting halls where people are expected to spend 30 minutes, do they?
why do you keep thinking waiting halls=30 minutes of waiting? waiting is not caused by the availability of the seating areas, it is caused by the booking system.

there are ppl commuting on Hangzhou-Shanghai and Tianjin-Beijing ICLs, they are familiar with the process so they don't have to wait more than 10 minutes. Now with online booking, they don't have to wait at all. The ppl most likely to wait are those who don't travel much, which account for the majority of travelers during holiday seasons. It'd be disastrous if the station designer is a naive idealist.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 09:09 PM   #2422
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Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
After watching this thread for a year or so, I've come to realise that High Speed Rail in China is becoming an awful lot like air travel, with the stations being a long way fromt he city centre, a (relatively) difficult booking process requiring I.D. cards, the Stations themselves bearing a strong resemblance to airports.
It seems that it is the capacity, eco-friendliness and the lack of delays that are what differentiate the services from air travel.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems those who planned the HSR network have shot themselves in the foot a little with this?
Maybe a Chinese forumer can explain what motives were behind this?
Some people have explained this before and I am repeating here.
One reason is many of the cities are overcrowded and the new station will
serve as the core of a new show case district for the city. Most of the stations are less than 10-15km away from the old center, so it is not really that far. In a few years part of the city will "move" to the station. Another reason is demolition cost is too high to go through the old center. Of course there is competition between cities and everyone wants to have the best looking station one can get. This is human nature, not just Chinese ones.

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Old June 16th, 2011, 09:18 PM   #2423
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France has some success with stations being a long way from the city centre, and associated developments. Japan too in some places.

Is it required on the Chinese high speed network to arrive 30 minutes in advance?

I could see how some people have a preference for arriving a long time in advance if they are very irregular travellers for whom opportunity cost of time is relatively low, and the price of the ticket relatively high.

For example I tend to arrive around the minimum 30 minutes before my Eurostar leaves, or about 15 minutes before the gate closes for an EasyJet flight from Stansted. But I know many people who voluntarily arrive an hour to even one and a half hour before.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 10:12 PM   #2424
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Slower, regular trains have their uses, I'm sure we can all agree. But the point he was making was not that HSR is bad, but rather that the stations are poorly placed and seem to function far too much like airports with complicated check-ins and such. Look at Tokyo and Paris: the HSR doesn't end outside the city with a subway line connecting into the city, the HSR there stops right in the thick of it!
you are loosing the point.

China cities are not Paris. What today ins't downtown will be in 5 years.
Chinese cities are becoming larger and larger every year. Plus, most of them are polycentric.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 10:19 PM   #2425
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Is it required on the Chinese high speed network to arrive 30 minutes in advance?
No, the automatic gate will not scan your ticket if the train is less than 3 minutes from departure. As long as you make to the gate before that you are fine.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 10:24 PM   #2426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swede View Post
Slower, regular trains have their uses, I'm sure we can all agree. But the point he was making was not that HSR is bad, but rather that the stations are poorly placed and seem to function far too much like airports with complicated check-ins and such. Look at Tokyo and Paris: the HSR doesn't end outside the city with a subway line connecting into the city, the HSR there stops right in the thick of it!
I think before making conclusions about such issues we should look into the entire urban fabric of the Chinese cities. Even the old and well-established cities like Guangzhou and Shanghai are undergoing a throughout transformation. And when we say transformation in China we mean transformation and not just a cosmetic surgery. It means a complete overhaul and re-construction of the entire city which means new transport links, new CBD's, new motorways, entire new districts and boroughs which is no much different from building an entire city from scratch. There is no such thing as the main "city center" (or "downtown") there. Show me where is the "center" of Guangzhou, Shenzhen or Tianjin, Beijing? Where was it 10 years ago? Where is it now? Where will it (or shall we say they) be in another 10 years? It's very different planning, different ideology and different tools to achieve it. For instance, Guangzhou South station area is more o less a wasteland now but is set to become one of multiple major commercial developments (along with other 3 or 4 in other locations of the vast metropolis). Same applies to Shanghai Hongqiao. Same in most other major cities in China. London and Paris is not how contemporary 21st century cities are done. It's merely how it was done in the 19th century and this is clearly not an example to follow nowadays.

Last edited by Pansori; June 16th, 2011 at 10:30 PM.
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Old June 17th, 2011, 06:02 AM   #2427
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Beijing to Shanghai speed to hit 350km/h

By Xin Dingding (China Daily)
Updated: 2011-06-16

BEIJING - The operating speed of the much-anticipated Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway is likely to reach 350 km/h in the future, said a senior railway official. Zhai Jianguo, chief accountant with the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway company, said on Wednesday that in 2007 the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC), the country's economic planner, set 300 km/h as the operating speed for the line's first year of service.

image hosted on flickr

A CRH380B high-speed train departs
Shanghai Hongqiao Railway Station on
Monday. [Photo / Xinhua]


The project's feasibility report, approved by NDRC in 2007, said that the high-speed railway's operating speed should be 350 km/h, but in the initial stage trains should run at 300 km/h and the railway should also operate 200 km/h trains. Zhai explained that setting a one-year initial stage is a common practice, as the rail track must be tested over four seasons, including floods in summer and snowfalls in winter. At the end of that stage, the central government will check the line and decide whether to accept it. "By then, we say a rail line starts formal operations," he said. "And we will reassess how many trains a day to run on the line as well as the speed for its formal operation, based on the one-year results and how well the public accepts the line. "The possibility of running trains at 350 km/h on the line has not been excluded."

The initial stage's operating speed of 300 km/h, which is lower than expected, also has nothing to do with the quality of the project, Yang Qibing, deputy chief commander of the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway construction headquarters, said on Wednesday. Yang also said the railway's construction time had not been shortened and that the milestone project had not sacrificed quality to meet a tighter construction schedule. Originally, the railway was due to open in 2012.

Yang explained that initial estimates said the line's construction would take five years, because the Dashengguan Bridge in Nanjing over the Yangtze River would take five years to build. But for the major part of the line, construction time was expected to take three and a half years. The fact is, the construction of the Dashengguan Bridge had started at the beginning of 2006, two years before that of the major part of the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway, and the bridge was opened in January this year. Work on other parts of the railway started at the beginning of 2008, a few months ahead of the ceremony on April 18, 2008, marking the start of construction of the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway, he said. "The actual time of the railway construction has not been shortened," Yang said, rejecting claims that the project's construction time had been reduced to meet an advanced deadline and that this might have affected the quality of the work. In fact, tests and checks have shown the landmark railway's quality is good.

For example, 55,585 concrete-strength tests on bridges, tunnels and culverts along the line have all passed checks conducted by the country's best laboratory in that field, he said, refuting earlier media reports that questioned the quality of concrete used in high-speed railways. Fly ash is a glass-like powder used to improve the strength of concrete. After it was found that substandard fly ash was being used in part of the Guiyang-Guangzhou high-speed railway, some media reports said there might not be enough quality fly ash to meet demands generated by the large high-speed railway projects in China. Also, foundation piles for railway bridges that account for 80 percent of the railway's 1,318 kilometers have all passed checks conducted by a third party, Yang said. The Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway's infrastructure, including bridges and culverts, have a designed life span of 100 years, and this can be guaranteed, he added.
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Old June 17th, 2011, 08:36 AM   #2428
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Originally Posted by Luli Pop View Post
you are loosing the point.

China cities are not Paris. What today ins't downtown will be in 5 years.
Chinese cities are becoming larger and larger every year. Plus, most of them are polycentric.
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Old June 17th, 2011, 09:34 AM   #2429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANR View Post
By Xin Dingding (China Daily)
Updated: 2011-06-16

BEIJING - The operating speed of the much-anticipated Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway is likely to reach 350 km/h in the future, said a senior railway official. Zhai Jianguo, chief accountant with the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway company, said on Wednesday that in 2007 the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC), the country's economic planner, set 300 km/h as the operating speed for the line's first year of service.

image hosted on flickr

A CRH380B high-speed train departs
Shanghai Hongqiao Railway Station on
Monday. [Photo / Xinhua]


The project's feasibility report, approved by NDRC in 2007, said that the high-speed railway's operating speed should be 350 km/h, but in the initial stage trains should run at 300 km/h and the railway should also operate 200 km/h trains. Zhai explained that setting a one-year initial stage is a common practice, as the rail track must be tested over four seasons, including floods in summer and snowfalls in winter. At the end of that stage, the central government will check the line and decide whether to accept it. "By then, we say a rail line starts formal operations," he said. "And we will reassess how many trains a day to run on the line as well as the speed for its formal operation, based on the one-year results and how well the public accepts the line. "The possibility of running trains at 350 km/h on the line has not been excluded."

The initial stage's operating speed of 300 km/h, which is lower than expected, also has nothing to do with the quality of the project, Yang Qibing, deputy chief commander of the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway construction headquarters, said on Wednesday. Yang also said the railway's construction time had not been shortened and that the milestone project had not sacrificed quality to meet a tighter construction schedule. Originally, the railway was due to open in 2012.

Yang explained that initial estimates said the line's construction would take five years, because the Dashengguan Bridge in Nanjing over the Yangtze River would take five years to build. But for the major part of the line, construction time was expected to take three and a half years. The fact is, the construction of the Dashengguan Bridge had started at the beginning of 2006, two years before that of the major part of the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway, and the bridge was opened in January this year. Work on other parts of the railway started at the beginning of 2008, a few months ahead of the ceremony on April 18, 2008, marking the start of construction of the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway, he said. "The actual time of the railway construction has not been shortened," Yang said, rejecting claims that the project's construction time had been reduced to meet an advanced deadline and that this might have affected the quality of the work. In fact, tests and checks have shown the landmark railway's quality is good.

For example, 55,585 concrete-strength tests on bridges, tunnels and culverts along the line have all passed checks conducted by the country's best laboratory in that field, he said, refuting earlier media reports that questioned the quality of concrete used in high-speed railways. Fly ash is a glass-like powder used to improve the strength of concrete. After it was found that substandard fly ash was being used in part of the Guiyang-Guangzhou high-speed railway, some media reports said there might not be enough quality fly ash to meet demands generated by the large high-speed railway projects in China. Also, foundation piles for railway bridges that account for 80 percent of the railway's 1,318 kilometers have all passed checks conducted by a third party, Yang said. The Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway's infrastructure, including bridges and culverts, have a designed life span of 100 years, and this can be guaranteed, he added.
at least it gives us some hope.

btw, could you give us the link to the article? thx.
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Old June 17th, 2011, 12:51 PM   #2430
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They build stations long way from city center because there is no space in the city center left, and even if they do the land acquisition cost is way too high. Another motive is to trigger new developments in the outskirts of the city, creating satellite towns in the suburb to channel the population away from city center. The ID requirement is to deter ticket tout that's rampant at railway stations. The stations are huge for crowd control reasons during peak travel season. Besides the fact that new stations are almost as far away from city center as airports, I don't see any problem with the latter two characteristics.
That's not entirely true. In most cities there are swathes of inner city slums that are dying for redevelopment, and also existing railway stations are surrounded by such areas. What's needed is integrated development, where infrastructure construction coincides with gentrification - it's called joined-up thinking.

What is more, satellite towns almost always become dormitory towns with the bulk of high-end business activity still taking place in or around the historic centre. There simply isn't the critical mass in the satellite towns for high-end business activities to take place. Not that the idea of satellite towns itself is a bad one, but thinking building a massive railway terminal will trigger satellite town business development is misguided at best.

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why do you keep thinking waiting halls=30 minutes of waiting? waiting is not caused by the availability of the seating areas, it is caused by the booking system.

there are ppl commuting on Hangzhou-Shanghai and Tianjin-Beijing ICLs, they are familiar with the process so they don't have to wait more than 10 minutes. Now with online booking, they don't have to wait at all. The ppl most likely to wait are those who don't travel much, which account for the majority of travelers during holiday seasons. It'd be disastrous if the station designer is a naive idealist.
But these new stations are NOT designed with 'green-skins' in mind, so the the point about the festive season is moot. With already world-class infrastructure and rolling stock in place, one could turn the system into a long-distance metro tomorrow. Waiting requirement could be reduced in an instant. Don't say people will not understand it - if they are treated like morons then of course they will become morons; but if you treat them as intelligent beings they will suddenly become intelligent beings.
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Old June 17th, 2011, 02:39 PM   #2431
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But these new stations are NOT designed with 'green-skins' in mind, so the the point about the festive season is moot. With already world-class infrastructure and rolling stock in place, one could turn the system into a long-distance metro tomorrow. Waiting requirement could be reduced in an instant.
I suspect that you haven't been in a HSR station during the holiday seasons. Sadly I don't have pics during those periods, so I am quoting Yaohua2000's pics
Quote:
Guangzhou South during 2011 spring festival

Shanghai Hongqiao during 2011 spring festival
I know these stations were far from reaching their full capacities but they were already pretty crowded after only 1 year or 7 months of operation. they'll definitely get much more crowded next year.

I think you are being a little too optimistic, and your idea of operating railways requires everything to work precisely according to plans. I like the big metro idea, but it is just not possible in China to me in the near future. for one thing, there are not even enough trainsets to support the 350km/h schedules let alone a metro-like schedule. workers at CNR and CSR are working their asses off to assemble the trains, and even their record-breaking manufacture speed cannot meet the demand.

Say the MOR decided to follow your suggestions and tried to improve the systems so that passengers don't have to wait and no waiting halls were built, what if their efforts failed and their plans did not work out? chances are that they would fail.

Quote:
Don't say people will not understand it - if they are treated like morons then of course they will become morons; but if you treat them as intelligent beings they will suddenly become intelligent beings.
frankly I am not worried about passengers, for I am more concerned about the railway systems.

again I am not a supporter of those huge waiting halls for their impressiveness or architectural characteristics, and I also hope that passengers do not have to wait at all. all I have been saying is, when the waiting process has not been eliminated, it is only logical to have the seating areas.
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Old June 17th, 2011, 03:43 PM   #2432
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Well, my main trouble with the waiting halls is that they turn the station from a simple platforms+shed setup to a gigantic building. They are expensive. All the money spent on this, the land and the marble paving for the squares, and the car-orientated road systems could be spent on building/expanding city centre stations.

Those pictures - they are not even cosy yet. This number of people is nothing if shoved directly onto trains, and if waiting time is halved on average, the station would actually appear empty. You don't know crowded if you haven't seen Victoria or Euston in London, yet everyone channelise themselves effectively by all walking in the same directions at the same speed, so there's no trouble at all getting onto the platform straightaway. It's about intelligent use of resources.

A metro set-up does not depend on frequency of trains (although it would 'help'), all that matters is the ticketing and boarding procedures. With low frequency there is a low probability of passengers of early and later trains over-lapping, so you don't need massive waiting facilities. With high frequency, you just need to allow for 'turn-up-and-go', so you still don't need massive waiting facilities.

I'm afraid the big structures are everything to do with politics and lucrative contracts, and little, if anything, to do with MOR being cautious. There's no effort required - people DON'T want to wait if they don't have to - if there's a train in 5 minutes and they can use it, they WILL use it. Virtually all other countries don't have these waiting halls, and a lot of their stations have throughputs much higher than Chinese stations even in the holiday season.
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Old June 17th, 2011, 03:51 PM   #2433
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To be fair most stations do have waiting areas but they are created as cafes, eatery, barbershop, etc. any place to kill time.
Look at the newly renovated Shinagawa station, they have a department store within the station AFTER entering the ticket gate.
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Old June 17th, 2011, 04:42 PM   #2434
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Beijing-Shanghai HSR drill











































驾驶室,隔开VIP坐席和驾驶室的雾化玻璃可以切换效果,透明时,乘客可以通过驾驶员的视角看到列车前方。图为毛玻璃效果


列车在时速300公里时依然十分平稳,放在扶手上的鸡蛋不会滑动








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Old June 17th, 2011, 04:46 PM   #2435
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I like the egg
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Old June 17th, 2011, 04:55 PM   #2436
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more














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Old June 17th, 2011, 05:30 PM   #2437
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cool thanks
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Old June 17th, 2011, 06:43 PM   #2438
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That's not entirely true. In most cities there are swathes of inner city slums that are dying for redevelopment, and also existing railway stations are surrounded by such areas. What's needed is integrated development, where infrastructure construction coincides with gentrification - it's called joined-up thinking.

What is more, satellite towns almost always become dormitory towns with the bulk of high-end business activity still taking place in or around the historic centre. There simply isn't the critical mass in the satellite towns for high-end business activities to take place. Not that the idea of satellite towns itself is a bad one, but thinking building a massive railway terminal will trigger satellite town business development is misguided at best.
You are right that many cities still have underdeveloped areas, but we are talking about major HSR stations, which requires a huge space, I don't know any major cities in China that can just clear out such an large space in the downtown area. In addition you have to have HSR lines going into the city, so that also require the space to do so. People are also going to complain about noise and other negative affects by the line, so the public pressure will prevent them from doing so. Just look at the Longyang Rd to Hongqiao maglev project and you'll see how difficult it is to get a new rail line through the city. Currently those new HSR stations are not in the middle of nowhere, just not in the traditional downtown area, for example there are plenty of businesses around the Hongqiao hub, or in Nanjing's case very close to the Hexi CBD. In both cases there have already been projects underway in nearby areas as a result of the HSR station. No matter whether you like it or not, HSR station triggering surrounding area's development is a reality in China.
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Old June 17th, 2011, 06:48 PM   #2439
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more
Wow those first class seats are nice, it may be worth the price is money isn't too tight.
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Old June 17th, 2011, 10:00 PM   #2440
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You are right that many cities still have underdeveloped areas, but we are talking about major HSR stations, which requires a huge space, I don't know any major cities in China that can just clear out such an large space in the downtown area. In addition you have to have HSR lines going into the city, so that also require the space to do so. People are also going to complain about noise and other negative affects by the line, so the public pressure will prevent them from doing so. Just look at the Longyang Rd to Hongqiao maglev project and you'll see how difficult it is to get a new rail line through the city. Currently those new HSR stations are not in the middle of nowhere, just not in the traditional downtown area, for example there are plenty of businesses around the Hongqiao hub, or in Nanjing's case very close to the Hexi CBD. In both cases there have already been projects underway in nearby areas as a result of the HSR station. No matter whether you like it or not, HSR station triggering surrounding area's development is a reality in China.
Stations don't need to be right in the middle of the town, but should be just on the edge of the centre, a short-hop bus-ride or 2-5 metro stops to most CBDs. HSR stations are big but aren't (or don't need to be) that big, they only take up 1 'block' and some slum areas are much bigger than that. There are some good examples actually, like the expansion of most stations on the Shanghai - Nanjing line. If a different alignment is needed, the approaching lines can be underground and tunnelling really isn't that expensive these days, and it's not uncommon for 'throats' to be under office towers in other countries.

Nanjing South's location is marginally acceptable, but a rebuilt old Nanjing South on the correct side of Yuhuatai would be much better. As for Shanghai, I'm really not sure if they've done all they can to maximise the potential of the existing alignments of Shanghai and Shanghai South stations. In fact, the depot at Old North Station should be converted back into a terminal station, with the depot itself relocated to the Jiangqiao area. There is some business around there, but they are a pittance compared to what's between Jing'an Temple and Century Park, who make up the bulk of HSR business travel demand.

Also, is anyone else bothered by the fact that only women work as train crew?
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