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Old June 18th, 2011, 12:58 AM   #2441
fragel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
To be fair most stations do have waiting areas but they are created as cafes, eatery, barbershop, etc. any place to kill time.
Look at the newly renovated Shinagawa station, they have a department store within the station AFTER entering the ticket gate.
that is what I am talking about, after the seating areas serve the current purposes, they can be converted into commercial areas.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 01:03 AM   #2442
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Also, is anyone else bothered by the fact that only women work as train crew?
just like flight stewards, train attendants are mostly young ladies in China. I think it is due to culture of the Chinese service industry, plus there is a large pool of candidates from which you can select. there are male staff in the dining cars though. train drivers and on-board technicians are almost always male.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 01:52 AM   #2443
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The chart comparing the HSR with planes ignores the fact that the train stops at a dozen cities along the way, picking up and dropping off passengers. A passenger in Nanjing can travel to Tianjin by HSR, never touching the line's namesakes. It's like a hub-and-spoke transportation system along a single line. I would like to see a study comparing the efficiency (however you define efficiency, maybe cost effectiveness) of establishing a plane system that reaches all the possible combinations of Point A--Point B with this HSR line.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 03:22 AM   #2444
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Originally Posted by Geography View Post
The chart comparing the HSR with planes ignores the fact that the train stops at a dozen cities along the way, picking up and dropping off passengers. A passenger in Nanjing can travel to Tianjin by HSR, never touching the line's namesakes. It's like a hub-and-spoke transportation system along a single line. I would like to see a study comparing the efficiency (however you define efficiency, maybe cost effectiveness) of establishing a plane system that reaches all the possible combinations of Point A--Point B with this HSR line.
My point exactly. A long HSR train run actually accounts for a number journey combinations large and small. This is simply not possible in an airplane. And I think this is where HSR is also more efficient and attractive than domestic air travel. Someone needs to tell the the anti-HSR guys this fact.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 03:30 AM   #2445
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Beijing to Shanghai speed to hit 350km/h

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at least it gives us some hope.

btw, could you give us the link to the article? thx.
The link to the article "Beijing to Shanghai speed to hit 350km/h" is:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchin...t_12713214.htm
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Old June 18th, 2011, 12:52 PM   #2446
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we are talking about major HSR stations, which requires a huge space, I don't know any major cities in China that can just clear out such an large space in the downtown area. In addition you have to have HSR lines going into the city, so that also require the space to do so. People are also going to complain about noise and other negative affects by the line
Correct. That's why in some cases these lines have been built underground. I Chuna can build several subway lines, one of them could be the one for HSR :-)
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Old June 18th, 2011, 06:07 PM   #2447
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Speeding back up

Should 200 km/h trains run on 350 km/h lines? They would affect the capacity of 300 km/h trains.

Would the railway capacity be damaged if the trains of 250 km/h and 300 km/h were replaced with trains of, say, 280 km/h and 350 km/h? How much more expensive would 280 km/h be compared to 250 km/h trains?
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Old June 18th, 2011, 06:37 PM   #2448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Should 200 km/h trains run on 350 km/h lines? They would affect the capacity of 300 km/h trains.

Would the railway capacity be damaged if the trains of 250 km/h and 300 km/h were replaced with trains of, say, 280 km/h and 350 km/h? How much more expensive would 280 km/h be compared to 250 km/h trains?
Although I believe the figures are completely arbitrary, with difference in speed the amount of energy consumption and required amount of maintenance will be different dictated by laws of physics.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 10:45 PM   #2449
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Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Stations don't need to be right in the middle of the town, but should be just on the edge of the centre, a short-hop bus-ride or 2-5 metro stops to most CBDs.
True... but that is if you know exactly where the center is or where it will be in another 20 years. Otherwise it may get a little tricky. European logic of 19th century transport planning shall not be applied there. It's long-gone past and history. The fact that some cities in Europe and elsewhere still work as museums with their planning peculiarities is not a guide to follow.


Quote:
Also, is anyone else bothered by the fact that only women work as train crew?
I think this is great. I would be bothered if all (or most) of onboard crew would be men. Actually it happened to me once with, I think, Kuwait Airlines... it was the worst in-flight service by the worst airline I have ever been on. It's a bit like having ice cream with pepper instead of caramel or strawberry jam.
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Old June 19th, 2011, 12:44 AM   #2450
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Actually historically it was exactly the same here. The main London termini were on the edge of the city, which then grew around them. Many provincial towns had stations on the edge and either grew or moved around them.
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Old June 19th, 2011, 04:35 AM   #2451
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Shenzhen North Station Pass By on Longhua Line
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Old June 19th, 2011, 05:22 AM   #2452
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The current weather is the best promotional agency for Beijing-Shanghai HSR against flights.

Reporters traveled by air and train to compare the real traveling time between Beijing and Shanghai, and here are two experiments:

1. Shanghai to Beijing

Ms. Gu: HSR @09:00. She left office at 08:15 to Hongqiao Railway Station. Train departed at 09:00, arrived in Beijing South at 13:55 on time.

Mr. Ma: flight scheduled @08:55. He arrived at the Hongqiao Airport at 07:50, but was told that the 08:55 flight was canceled due to bad weather. At 10:30, he was switched to a 12:00 flight. Plane was still on the ground at 12:10. He finally arrived at Tian'anmen Square at 16:30, but did not find Ms. Gu on the square, because she had waited for too long and then decided to visit the national museum.

2. Beijing to Shanghai

Both the train and the flight were scheduled @10:00. But the 10:00 flight was canceled again due to bad weather, so the flight group had to change to a 11:00 flight but it was delayed for another 35 minutes. The train group departed at 10:00 and arrived at 14:55 on time after stopping at Ji'nan and Nanjing, and they spent 37 minutes less traveling from their office to People's Square in Shanghai.
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Old June 19th, 2011, 05:29 AM   #2453
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According to Ms. Gu in the report, cellphone signal and 3G wifi connection were pretty poor on Beijing-Shanghai HSR, that is something needs to be addressed.
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Old June 19th, 2011, 05:35 AM   #2454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fragel View Post
The current weather is the best promotional agency for Beijing-Shanghai HSR against flights.

Reporters traveled by air and train to compare the real traveling time between Beijing and Shanghai, and here are two experiments:

1. Shanghai to Beijing

Ms. Gu: HSR @09:00. She left office at 08:15 to Hongqiao Railway Station. Train departed at 09:00, arrived in Beijing South at 13:55 on time.

Mr. Ma: flight scheduled @08:55. He arrived at the Hongqiao Airport at 07:50, but was told that the 08:55 flight was canceled due to bad weather. At 10:30, he was switched to a 12:00 flight. Plane was still on the ground at 12:10. He finally arrived at Tian'anmen Square at 16:30, but did not find Ms. Gu on the square, because she had waited for too long and then decided to visit the national museum.

2. Beijing to Shanghai

Both the train and the flight were scheduled @10:00. But the 10:00 flight was canceled again due to bad weather, so the flight group had to change to a 11:00 flight but it was delayed for another 35 minutes. The train group departed at 10:00 and arrived at 14:55 on time after stopping at Ji'nan and Nanjing, and they spent 37 minutes less traveling from their office to People's Square in Shanghai.
Out of curiosity, what kind of weather are they talking about that will ground a plane?
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Old June 19th, 2011, 05:59 AM   #2455
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strong wind and heavy thunderstorms.
pretty common during this season.
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Old June 19th, 2011, 06:59 AM   #2456
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First vids from Beijing-Shanghai Highspeed Railway. Enjoy:




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Old June 19th, 2011, 01:12 PM   #2457
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Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
True... but that is if you know exactly where the center is or where it will be in another 20 years. Otherwise it may get a little tricky. European logic of 19th century transport planning shall not be applied there. It's long-gone past and history. The fact that some cities in Europe and elsewhere still work as museums with their planning peculiarities is not a guide to follow.
Cities develop with patterns. Even for fast developing cities like Shenzhen, underneath the seemingly uniformly chaotic exterior, you can always find an underlying Burgess-Hoyt hybrid pattern; and while European cities may look like museums, they cater for modern economic needs surprisingly well. These are not things one could understand from 5-day phototrips.

New developments cluster and expand around the traditional core in concentric rings, and that's dictated by the way infrastructure develops. Take contemporary Shanghai for example, (old) Huangpu district has always been the business centre in its 200-year history. New CBDs that popped up in the last 20-30 years like Lujiazui, Shanghai Station, Xujiahui, Jing'an Temple, all form a ring around Huangpu, while Huangpu itself has always grown in importance and prestige. That's why new stations should be as close to the old centre as reasonably possible, so it can adequately serve it and ALL the surrounding future developments, not just ONE on one side.

Quote:
I think this is great. I would be bothered if all (or most) of onboard crew would be men. Actually it happened to me once with, I think, Kuwait Airlines... it was the worst in-flight service by the worst airline I have ever been on. It's a bit like having ice cream with pepper instead of caramel or strawberry jam.
That's the worst kind of sexist attitude. Why should the gender of train/air crew affect the standard of service?! Why should people's jobs and careers be dictated by their gender?
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Old June 19th, 2011, 02:22 PM   #2458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Cities develop with patterns. Even for fast developing cities like Shenzhen, underneath the seemingly uniformly chaotic exterior, you can always find an underlying Burgess-Hoyt hybrid pattern; and while European cities may look like museums, they cater for modern economic needs surprisingly well. These are not things one could understand from 5-day phototrips.
Indeed. It's the maps and plans that help to understand it. Therefore I suggest to look at some. Also, living in some places (e.g. London) helps to understand how not to develop a city in the 21st century. Chinese are doing damn good with their urban developments over the past 10 years or so. They are not trying to copy or "adapt" the over-romanticized postmodern ideas from Europe or America but instead go for practical and efficient urban planning which serves the needs of the most of the society and not just "anti-this", "anti-that" or real estate development companies. It may not appeal to those who think that by making streets narrower and banning cars the city will become more humane and friendly, but it's what will make Chinese cities by far the best, most efficiently and practically prapared to serve their purpose in the 21st century. Very similar development philosophy, albeit on a smaller scale, is well showcased in Singapore which is quite possibly the best planned and most efficient city on our planet.

And what exactly you mean by "patterns", say, in Shenzhen? How, for instance, Qian Hai Water City (which will effectively become SZ's main CBD, commercial and cultural area, waaaaay off the current main CBDs and commercial areas) blends in into what you call a pattern of the urban development of that city? How is Guangzhou's Beietan development blending in around the historic centers and Tianhe CBD? I just can't see how such development patters would support your point. In fact, they seem to do the opposite.





Quote:
That's the worst kind of sexist attitude. Why should the gender of train/air crew affect the standard of service?! Why should people's jobs and careers be dictated by their gender?

I don't know. Why do I prefer to see a hot and good-looking girl instead of a guy serving me? Maybe because I'm a heterosexual man?
Why does Singapore Airlines (arguably the best airline company in history) think the same?

Of course, I am not saying that, for instance, women, homosexual or asexual men have to share the same attitude. To everyone their own I guess. I admit I'm quite selfish in this area. All I know is that "hot girls in trains=good" and all I can hope for is that it won't change. Moreover I know most men would agree with me and especially in China.

Last edited by Pansori; June 19th, 2011 at 02:35 PM.
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Old June 19th, 2011, 04:17 PM   #2459
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Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
... ...
I think this is great. I would be bothered if all (or most) of onboard crew would be men. Actually it happened to me once with, I think, Kuwait Airlines... it was the worst in-flight service by the worst airline I have ever been on. It's a bit like having ice cream with pepper instead of caramel or strawberry jam.
LOL ... having ice cream with pepper ... ...
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Old June 19th, 2011, 04:32 PM   #2460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geography View Post
The chart comparing the HSR with planes ignores the fact that the train stops at a dozen cities along the way, picking up and dropping off passengers. A passenger in Nanjing can travel to Tianjin by HSR, never touching the line's namesakes. It's like a hub-and-spoke transportation system along a single line. I would like to see a study comparing the efficiency (however you define efficiency, maybe cost effectiveness) of establishing a plane system that reaches all the possible combinations of Point A--Point B with this HSR line.
I've actually been on a train from Tianjin to Nanjing. Not this new one though, but CRH1. And I can tell you that when you buy ticket you place is actually reserved from Beijing. So far JingJin service coupes well with intercity traffic, so I can't imagine some people wanting to take a ride on JinHu line from BJ to TJ... Unless it is important to someone to arrive to TJ West... But it'll be interesting to see if this would take off.
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