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Old June 21st, 2011, 08:35 PM   #2481
NCT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solowoo View Post
For your information, in Hong Kong it is indeed possible to walk a long distance, from the seaside to the hillside or from the west end to the east end for say 20 minutes, without crossing a street.

which, by the way, is only an example. Similar footbridge/tunnel systems are being adopted in other commercial or even residential districts.

It does require some planning, but not impossible.
Thanks for that. How well does the footbridge network utilise lifts and escalators inside buildings for access, or does it have its own? It is an 'exceptional' case though, and only realistic in few cases. Most of the streets in this area, and for the matter in the entire Hong Kong, are still very walkable. So my original point about having to keep private car usage right down still stands, and indeed private car usage in Hong Kong IS extremely low.
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Old June 21st, 2011, 09:00 PM   #2482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fragel View Post
In eastern China, $85 is about half of the monthly minimum salary, about 1/5-1/4 of the monthly salary of a migrant worker, about 1/9-1/8 of a high speed train attendant's monthly salary, about 1/11-1/10 of an average white collar worker(educated professional)'s monthly salary in Shanghai, about 1/20-1/19 of the high speed train driver's monthly salary. Statistics also show that there are 5.4 million people in Beijing categorized as 'middle class' in 2010, which has an average monthly salary of $900 per capita.

you can say a $85 ride isn't cheap considering the average income level. But for its targeted customers, it is lower than expectation.
wow, the high speed driver's salary is double of educated professionals, that's surprising. I guess the high speed driver's salary is similar to an airline pilot in China?
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Old June 21st, 2011, 09:06 PM   #2483
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By the way, no words on the ticket sales yet for Beijing-Shanghai high speed line? If the service will start on the 28th, the ticket sales should have been started yesterday (1 week earlier).

Also, what happened to the news from long time ago that China will try to break the world record of 574km/h before the opening of the Beijing-Shanghai line? i guess it has been prosponed now?
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Old June 21st, 2011, 09:47 PM   #2484
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Originally Posted by NCT View Post
I think you are over-estimating the Chinese Joe Average somewhat. The truth is there is huge income inequality in China, and grey income is only possible for those with 'connections'. Although the prices are reasonable for HSR's target group, there is a large group of people who are left considerably squeezed, who used to have the option of more green-skins.

Now, the response to this problem doesn't need to be bashing HSR to death. There can be a transition period where an old green-skin timetable runs alongside the new HSR timetable for a while, and as more high-speed rolling stock in put in place, advance-purchase off-peak tickets can be priced at 'bargain' levels so the low-income groups don't lose out.
No, he is not over-estimating. If you asked people you known back in china about how much they make monthly, they often tell you 3-4 thousands normally. They don't count in various bonus and allowance since it is not predictable. You cannot apply income concept in western countries in china
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Old June 21st, 2011, 10:11 PM   #2485
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Quote:
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No, he is not over-estimating. If you asked people you known back in china about how much they make monthly, they often tell you 3-4 thousands normally. They don't count in various bonus and allowance since it is not predictable. You cannot apply income concept in western countries in china
Counting various bonuses and allowance, the figure still wouldn't usually exceed 5000, and this is the typical middle-class take-home pay. It's only people in for example health-care (doctors who take bonuses from pharmaceutical companies) and some education sectors (instrumental teachers for example) who make loads 'unofficially', or those who control government coffers. Those employed in the private sector, especially foreign-owned companies don't really have any grey income at all. Beneath that there are still masses of manual workers who barely make 3000 a month.
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Old June 21st, 2011, 10:21 PM   #2486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Although the prices are reasonable for HSR's target group, there is a large group of people who are left considerably squeezed, who used to have the option of more green-skins.

Now, the response to this problem doesn't need to be bashing HSR to death. There can be a transition period where an old green-skin timetable runs alongside the new HSR timetable for a while,
What speed group is meant with "green-skins"?
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Old June 21st, 2011, 10:28 PM   #2487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Counting various bonuses and allowance, the figure still wouldn't usually exceed 5000, and this is the typical middle-class take-home pay. It's only people in for example health-care (doctors who take bonuses from pharmaceutical companies) and some education sectors (instrumental teachers for example) who make loads 'unofficially', or those who control government coffers. Those employed in the private sector, especially foreign-owned companies don't really have any grey income at all. Beneath that there are still masses of manual workers who barely make 3000 a month.
For those lower class, it might be true. But for those typical middle-class, the income they claim is way less than their actually income.

I have applied a job of a foreign-owned company in BJ few years ago, lunch, transportation, gym membership, dressing allowance account for almost 20% after-tax income
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Old June 22nd, 2011, 12:06 AM   #2488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
What speed group is meant with "green-skins"?
It's just a by-word for traditional trains that are usually painted green.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbz View Post
For those lower class, it might be true. But for those typical middle-class, the income they claim is way less than their actually income.

I have applied a job of a foreign-owned company in BJ few years ago, lunch, transportation, gym membership, dressing allowance account for almost 20% after-tax income
Ah, so those perks only account for 20%, so total income is not really way above what's claimed, is it? When you said people claimed 3000-4000, and I suggested about 5000, I wasn't far off was I, well in fact quite generous with my estimations. And I think you are confusing typical middle-class with rather upper-middle-class too.
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Old June 22nd, 2011, 02:00 AM   #2489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
It's just a by-word for traditional trains that are usually painted green.

Ah, so those perks only account for 20%, so total income is not really way above what's claimed, is it? When you said people claimed 3000-4000, and I suggested about 5000, I wasn't far off was I, well in fact quite generous with my estimations. And I think you are confusing typical middle-class with rather upper-middle-class too.
Come on! you just said "foreign-owned companies don't really have any grey income at all ".

I guess you never have experience of working or opening a business in china

As for private or state-own companies, it is another story, according to my own working experience and those people i know, grey income accounts for at least half income of those working in state-own company. (Just think about apartments sold by state-own companies to their employees at lower market price.)

In small private companies, they will do as much as possible to have minimum income on paper since they try not paying any income tax.

Forget about so called middle class or upper middle class, let's talk about those millions working in sweat factory like Foxconn. Overtime paid by cash and free accommodation (even sometime condition is horrible) and meals can be equivalent to their namely income

Last edited by cbz; June 22nd, 2011 at 02:31 AM.
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Old June 22nd, 2011, 04:41 AM   #2490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Thanks for that. How well does the footbridge network utilise lifts and escalators inside buildings for access, or does it have its own? It is an 'exceptional' case though, and only realistic in few cases. Most of the streets in this area, and for the matter in the entire Hong Kong, are still very walkable. So my original point about having to keep private car usage right down still stands, and indeed private car usage in Hong Kong IS extremely low.
There are lifts and escalators both inside and outside buildings. When available, the "pedestrian level" are preferred to the ground by most people.

I do agree to minimizing private car use, but then developing a walkable city with a separated pedestrian level is more a complementary than a competing idea.
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Old June 22nd, 2011, 11:46 AM   #2491
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another Beijing-Shanghai HSR test ride blog by 陆岩

link:
http://caidan58.blog.163.com/blog/st...384410/?tupian

high speed train passing through Beijing Yongdingmen area (with the forbidden city in the far background):

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Old June 22nd, 2011, 12:23 PM   #2492
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more test ride experience

by 古道西风蓝马 at photography forum fengniao.com (click to see more pics)

G1 departing at 09:00, Beijing South Station



Intermediate stop at Nanjing South Station



Arrival at Shanghai Hongqiao Station



Return from Shanghai, G4



Train driver of G4



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Old June 22nd, 2011, 01:39 PM   #2493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbz View Post
Come on! you just said "foreign-owned companies don't really have any grey income at all ".

I guess you never have experience of working or opening a business in china

As for private or state-own companies, it is another story, according to my own working experience and those people i know, grey income accounts for at least half income of those working in state-own company. (Just think about apartments sold by state-own companies to their employees at lower market price.)

In small private companies, they will do as much as possible to have minimum income on paper since they try not paying any income tax.

Forget about so called middle class or upper middle class, let's talk about those millions working in sweat factory like Foxconn. Overtime paid by cash and free accommodation (even sometime condition is horrible) and meals can be equivalent to their namely income
Looking at my own family and friends the situation seems a bit less rosy than you make out. When they say '到手x' they really mean '到手x', that's including all the bonuses and saved travel expenses. Those perks you listed earlier are not uncommon in the west either, so in terms of comparisons I would hardly call them 'grey income' as an exclusive Chinese thing. As for employees of state-owned companies who can boast '工资基本不动', they are just a priviledged few who are not representitave of the entire demographics at all.
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Old June 22nd, 2011, 04:17 PM   #2494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fragel View Post


Look at this scene.. juicy..
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Old June 22nd, 2011, 05:46 PM   #2495
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The huge halls inside and plazas outside the stations like Hongqiao and Beijing South mean long walks to train.

Are these stations easy to reach by private car? Or are private car passengers required to find their own parking and take public transport to the edge of the pedestrian plaza?

What is the position of the 21 intermediate stations now under construction?
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Old June 22nd, 2011, 10:15 PM   #2496
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migrant construction worker * sell out despite departures every 10 or 15 minutes

Source: NEW YORK Times

Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/bu...al/23rail.html


Quote:
High-Speed Rail Poised to Transform China

By KEITH BRADSHER

Published: June 22, 2011

--------------------------------------------------



Work crews of as many as 100,000 people per line have built about half of the 10,000-mile
network in just six years, in many cases ahead of schedule — including the
Beijing-to-Shanghai line that was not originally expected to open until next year.
The entire system is on course to be completed by 2020.


For the United States and Europe, the implications go beyond marveling at the pace of
Communist-style civil engineering
.




[IMG]http://i55.************/30mb8ft.jpg[/IMG]


Because of this shift, plus the construction of additional freight lines, the tonnage hauled by
China’s rail system increased in 2010 by an amount equaling the entire freight carried last year
by the combined rail systems of Britain, France, Germany and Poland
, according to the World Bank.




Among the biggest beneficiaries of the high-speed rail system are companies that
contribute nothing to defray its costs.
Those would be freight shippers, which now have more exclusive use of the older rail lines, with fewer delays.



On the older tracks, the rail ministry has long been able to dictate that freight rates
would subsidize passenger trains because the ministry owns those older tracks outright.



The new, high-speed lines — passenger trains only — are owned by joint ventures between the ministry and provincial governments.



That has prevented the ministry from forcing freight shippers to cross-subsidize the new high-speed services.
As a result, passengers must pay much higher fares on the new trains than on the older ones.




Already, the longer routes elsewhere appear to draw much heavier ridership.
The trains, which typically carry 600 passengers, sometimes sell out
despite departures every 10 or 15 minutes, particularly on
Fridays but sometimes even at lunchtime in the middle of the week
.





Zhou Junde, a migrant construction worker with a large red and green
tattoo of a hawk on the right side of his neck, stood in line at the Changsha station
on a recent Friday afternoon to buy a high-speed ticket to Guangzhou.


But the next high-speed train was entirely sold out, and so was
the next one 10 minutes after that
. He would have to wait 30 minutes to board a train with a seat.


“Sometimes,” he said, “I come several hours early to get the departure I want.”


--------------------------------------------------

As the above story has shown,


1) <"CRH train are running empty"> is a horsecrap argument.


2) <"Migrant-workers can not afford to buy CRH tickets"> is also a horsecrap argument.
Keep in mind that plenty of these so-called migrant-workers are regularly gambling upward 500 RMB
per month on playing cards on the street or in the park.
I am personally employing these kind of migrant-workers at this moment.


Off Topic:

What happen to the study of traditional good civic behaviors <弟子规> ??
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Are you studying the Basic Traditional Proper CIVILIZED BEHAVIORS <弟子规> ??

Last edited by Mika Montwald; June 23rd, 2011 at 08:45 AM.
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Old June 23rd, 2011, 03:27 AM   #2497
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Anyone else concerned that the train drivers do not have seatbelts? When traveling at 300 km/hr, every half second counts when it comes to emergency braking. The driver might delay just a few seconds hitting the emergency stop button knowing that doing so will most likely kill or cripple him as he brakes his legs and neck on the windshield. That few seconds delay at such high speed is dangerous.

The train driver needs to be secure in order for him to do his job effectively. No seatbelt gives his brain subconscious pause in hitting the emergency stop button.
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Old June 23rd, 2011, 03:31 AM   #2498
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Are the seats in first class fully swivalable? Pretty good to have them all face the windows.
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Old June 23rd, 2011, 05:57 AM   #2499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geography View Post
Anyone else concerned that the train drivers do not have seatbelts? When traveling at 300 km/hr, every half second counts when it comes to emergency braking. The driver might delay just a few seconds hitting the emergency stop button knowing that doing so will most likely kill or cripple him as he brakes his legs and neck on the windshield. That few seconds delay at such high speed is dangerous.

The train driver needs to be secure in order for him to do his job effectively. No seatbelt gives his brain subconscious pause in hitting the emergency stop button.

At those speeds and distances emergency brakes are done by computers connected to sensors detecting any problems. It is all automated. These trains need kilometers to stop, it is beyond to scope of human eye. When the driver sees smt it is already tooooooooo late
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Old June 23rd, 2011, 06:51 AM   #2500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geography View Post
Anyone else concerned that the train drivers do not have seatbelts? When traveling at 300 km/hr, every half second counts when it comes to emergency braking. The driver might delay just a few seconds hitting the emergency stop button knowing that doing so will most likely kill or cripple him as he brakes his legs and neck on the windshield. That few seconds delay at such high speed is dangerous.

The train driver needs to be secure in order for him to do his job effectively. No seatbelt gives his brain subconscious pause in hitting the emergency stop button.
Buddy that is a high speed train with automatic train stop and in-cab signalling; not a pick up truck.
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