daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old July 24th, 2011, 07:58 AM   #2781
greenlion
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 374
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
They have safety belts on a HSR system????
For what purpose ????????
yes they do have on some of the trains.
greenlion no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old July 24th, 2011, 08:10 AM   #2782
Attus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rheinbach
Posts: 2,766
Likes (Received): 1039

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHF View Post
This is indeed a big shame to China. Japan has probably operated high speed rail for a much longer time and still maintains a perfect safety record?
Shinkansen system has been working since 1964, up till now without any leathal accident.
Attus no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 10:35 AM   #2783
greenlion
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 374
Likes (Received): 30







greenlion no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 10:48 AM   #2784
greenlion
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 374
Likes (Received): 30

Video: Official apologize from the China MOR
http://news.sohu.com/20110724/n314371525.shtml
greenlion no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 10:52 AM   #2785
greenlion
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 374
Likes (Received): 30

Bird's view of the accident scene
http://tv.sohu.com/20110724/n314366320.shtml
greenlion no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 11:42 AM   #2786
zergcerebrates
Registered User
 
zergcerebrates's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Guam,Los Angeles
Posts: 2,287
Likes (Received): 62

Don't want to sound insensitive, but considering how bad the crash site is I am surprised the death toll isnt higher. If this happened like those old Chinese trains hundreds would of died.
zergcerebrates no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 11:42 AM   #2787
bulabog jalaur
Registered User
 
bulabog jalaur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 272
Likes (Received): 296




This would surely raise doubts on once the pride of chinese rail technology.On the other way around we have to give credits in chinese developed rail technology in a sense that casualty are minimal, if is true that it carries thousands passenger.
__________________
If you believe everything you read, better not read.- Japanese Proverb
bulabog jalaur no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 11:49 AM   #2788
greenlion
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 374
Likes (Received): 30

Director of Shanghai Railway Bereau dismissed by Chinese MOR
greenlion no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 12:27 PM   #2789
greenlion
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 374
Likes (Received): 30

Yongtaiwen PDL service resumes 16:36 PM, D3115 departure from Hangzhou Station with about 500 passengers
greenlion no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 01:22 PM   #2790
WatcherZero
Registered User
 
WatcherZero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19,592

I wouldnt say the carriages performed well, effective closing speed of only 80 mph and its worse than a pacer crash.
WatcherZero no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 01:32 PM   #2791
NCT
Not Cwite There
 
NCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Shanghai, London, Nottingham
Posts: 6,209
Likes (Received): 1770

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlion View Post
Director of Shanghai Railway Bereau dismissed by Chinese MOR
A bit of a pointless publicity stunt if you ask me. The fault lies with the signalling system which is well beyond the pay-grade of local railway bureau directors.
__________________
My Shanghai photos - Nanjing Road, People's Square, The Bund, Xintiandi and more!
NCT está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 02:03 PM   #2792
SimFox
Registered User
 
SimFox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,823
Likes (Received): 513

Signaling system is sure at fault here, But what about this epidemic of power failures? It makes one wonder why such a natural phenomenon as lighting that man kind is well aware of has not been taken into account when trains and supporting system are designed. On the other hand I don't remember such things being so common in previous years of operation of the system... Had something changed?

On the other hand, when all the bigots rush in with their "made in China" blah blah. And how "superior" is Japanese technology, how "transparent" everything there... shouldn't you remember Fukushima Dai-ichi and TEPCO.

When speaking how swell everything in Germany - how about Eschede -read about the series of incredible lapses in safety and judgement in design, construction, maintenance and operation that led to it! What about maglev fire that killed 23 in Lathen?

Chinese system no doubt had problems and faults! And those should be found. But all this "made in China" is plain and simple bigotry and shame on you for using this tragedy, for exploiting these casualties simply to drive your hateful agenda.
SimFox no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 02:43 PM   #2793
idoke
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Beijing-HK-Jerusalem
Posts: 84
Likes (Received): 5


you have a point, but I think the problem with China's HSR is the amount of problems in such a short time.

The Fukushima disaster was due to one in a hundred year disaster - something you can't say about thunderstorms in China.

Not until very recently there were no HSR to speak of. This is the first summer (i.e - rainy season) which you have a massive HSR operation. And in such a short time we had so many malfunctions.

I think that the problem in China these days (and it is something that reflects on what happens in the ministry of Railroads) is Hubris. This attitude of "our trains are better than Japanese" etc is hurting China IMHO.

Like in all Greek tragedies, Hubris leads to disaster. China should be more humble - buy foreign technology when needed or use more foreign experts and so on.
idoke no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 02:46 PM   #2794
WatcherZero
Registered User
 
WatcherZero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19,592

As I understand it the system is setup such that if a train stops it sends a message to the following train to slow down or stop. If the train loses contact e.g. through equipment failure like in this case then all trains on the line are supposed to stop. The following train should have stopped automatically when communication was lost.
WatcherZero no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 03:35 PM   #2795
SimFox
Registered User
 
SimFox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,823
Likes (Received): 513

Quote:
Originally Posted by idoke View Post

you have a point, but I think the problem with China's HSR is the amount of problems in such a short time.
Would be interesting to find out if that decrease in max operating under the "guise" of safety had been accompanied by some "savings"... Cause this is what I believe is the real beef there - attempt to make system cheaper to built and, especially, to run. This would explain why all the problems stared to appear just now.
Given political system in China (and I'm not speaking in terms "communist", but in a same way how system operates in Japan - mostly in a "twilight" ) I doubt that we would hear full story here, though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by idoke View Post
The Fukushima disaster was due to one in a hundred year disaster - something you can't say about thunderstorms in China.
Problem with Fukushima was not the tsunami per se, but how station was designed and built, plus all the "dressed up" info TEPCO was feeding public. So it isn't so much natural, as man-made/cultural disaster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by idoke View Post
Not until very recently there were no HSR to speak of. This is the first summer (i.e - rainy season) which you have a massive HSR operation. And in such a short time we had so many malfunctions.
I guess we are talking of different systems, or countries!
I myself have been riding CRH for 4 years now. Mostly BJ-TJ - since before it had moved to new track. But I've also been on Hangzhou-Shanghai CRH1 as early as 2008. What I'm saying is if that is some fundamental design flaw shouldn't it have had surfaced by now? Why just now, just this storm season?
Quote:
Originally Posted by idoke View Post
I think that the problem in China these days (and it is something that reflects on what happens in the ministry of Railroads) is Hubris. This attitude of "our trains are better than Japanese" etc is hurting China IMHO.

Like in all Greek tragedies, Hubris leads to disaster. China should be more humble - buy foreign technology when needed or use more foreign experts and so on.
well, here I'm 100% with you! As one good saying goes "pride comes before a fall". Hubris blinds! And then kills!
Still I find it a bit strange what all these problems surfaced just this summer. I've been on BJ-TJ CRH3s through thunders and terrestrial rains, fog so thick one could see anything in few meters, that caused BJ-TJ highway being closed. And everything worked fine...
SimFox no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 04:04 PM   #2796
idoke
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Beijing-HK-Jerusalem
Posts: 84
Likes (Received): 5



Regarding Japan, during my previous job in China I worked a lot with both Chinese and Japanese customers, and I can say for 100% that overall Japanese care much more about quality than Chinese. There is no argument here. I think that every one that worked with both countries can back me on that one.

Japanese are much more detail-oriented than Chinese and they care much more about quality then Chinese. This is something that embedded very deep in the Japanese culture.

Of course no one is perfect and there is no excuse for what happened in Fukushima.

Regarding the HSR, I have no answer for your question. What I wanted to say in my previous post (I am sorry for not being too clear b4) is that the size of the HSR network was much smaller until very recently.
I also took the BJ-TJ HSR two years ago, so I am aware of its early existence, but the size of the HSR network was much smaller, so what I wanted to say is that the probability of malfunctions was smaller.

It was just a wild guess. There might have been a change recently in the system. I really don't know.
idoke no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 05:26 PM   #2797
SamuraiBlue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,232
Likes (Received): 195

Quote:
Problem with Fukushima was not the tsunami per se, but how station was designed and built, plus all the "dressed up" info TEPCO was feeding public. So it isn't so much natural, as man-made/cultural disaster.
Completely off topic but the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear power plant problem is not really an issued that can be compared to this accident.

First the reactor was a '60s design imported from GE when nuclear power plants were still in it's infancy stage.
Second it was scheduled to put out of commission at the end of this year due to it age and outdated design limiting more safety precautions.
Third it was hit by a once in a thousand years catastrophe.

The problem was the 30 meter tsunami that severed all power to the generators and TEPCO's dismal follow-up trying to cover up and make it look as if the problem was not as bad as it really was.

In my opinion people like you are doing exactly what TEPCO tried to do, down play a serious incident trying to deflect the problem pointing others and/or stating as if this is an isolated incident and that the whole system works perfectly even though there had been various mishaps prior to this event signaling a problem.
SamuraiBlue no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 05:49 PM   #2798
SimFox
Registered User
 
SimFox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,823
Likes (Received): 513

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
In my opinion people like you are doing exactly what TEPCO tried to do, down play a serious incident trying to deflect the problem pointing others and/or stating as if this is an isolated incident and that the whole system works perfectly even though there had been various mishaps prior to this event signaling a problem.
How am I doing that? I specifically say that there is something very systematic here. Amount of malfunctions that have surfaced now in few weeks seems to point to this conclusion. Yet system had operated successfully for years. And if you count km/passengers in previous years and in last few weeks you'll see that it's not just a statistical thing that is going on here. What we have now is clearly no isolated incidents. There is very clear pattern here. If system starts to shut down time after time because of lightning, which is a typical natural phenomenon, than clearly there is something fundamentally wrong with the system.

My question was why this shutdowns had manifested themselves just this year. Have you heard of such problems on BJ-TJ line that had been operating for years, on Wuhan-Guangzhou 1000 km line? On old Hangzhou-Shanghai, on Nanjing-Shanghai before this summer storm season? Is this season somehow exceptional? May be there are reasons other than purely political for firings in Shanghai branch of MOR...
SimFox no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 07:35 PM   #2799
WatcherZero
Registered User
 
WatcherZero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19,592

The train had been without power for 25 minutes before it was hit. Directive has been issued banning media talking to the passengers or Chinese media outlets discussing the merits of High Speed Rail. Good news is 4 year old girl was found in the wreckage 22 hours after the crash.

Chairman and Deputy Chairman along with Communist Party Committee Chairman from the Shanghai Railway Bureau all dismissed.
WatcherZero no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 09:14 PM   #2800
Mika Montwald
Improving Earth
 
Mika Montwald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Planet EARTH
Posts: 111
Likes (Received): 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by idoke View Post


Regarding Japan, during my previous job in China I worked a lot with both Chinese and Japanese customers, and I can say for 100% that overall Japanese care much more about quality than Chinese. There is no argument here. I think that every one that worked with both countries can back me on that one.

Japanese are much more detail-oriented than Chinese and they care much more about quality then Chinese. This is something that embedded very deep in the Japanese culture.



Firstly to those who passed away, I wish you all Rest In Peace.
I am bowing deeply 3 times to you all.
And those who survive, I wish you all recover speedily.
Secondly, I am bowing deeply to all those people in China who are trying to help by donating their blood.

--------------------------------------------------------------

All China nationals on this planet should be humble and accept this point of fact above and learn how to
embrace and enforce the concept of ZERO DEFECT -- QUALITY
in the process of building all things for domestic consumptions.


All these years, 99% China manufacturers have been paying attentions on
building quality products only when their products are for export markets.


It is a high time for all China companies involved in the domestic distribution chain &
all consumers in China to DEMAND top notch ZERO DEFECT -- QUALITY products & services
from the China domestic manufacturers, not just lowest bidding suppliers prices all the time.


If the Ministry of Railways had adopted this concept of ZERO DEFECT -- QUALITY products & services
when buying and inspecting all their present assets, then this accident will never happen.


For example, just look at the quality of tiles placements on all those brand new CRH stations
in Guangzhou South, Changsa, Wuhan, and Nanjing South.
99.99% of tiles placements are very shoddy.


Too many times, 99% of the migrant workers are not willing to buy and use
the proper tools to perform their jobs. All they carry are hammers.
Thus, they are hammering everything to the ground.
And yet, China consumers are not voicing displeasure about the job quality.


If all people in China can learn to adopt and embrace the concept of ZERO DEFECT -- QUALITY from (Edward Deming)
and combine it with the world famous "CHINA SPEED" and
the world famous "CHINA ENTREPRENEURSHIP", then watch out world,
we will leave everybody else in the cloud of dust.
__________________
HUGE DENSE FOREST Covering Cities


Are you studying the Basic Traditional Proper CIVILIZED BEHAVIORS <弟子规> ??

Last edited by Mika Montwald; July 25th, 2011 at 06:41 AM.
Mika Montwald no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
china, high speed rail

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium