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Old July 24th, 2011, 11:25 PM   #2801
hmmwv
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idoke View Post

you have a point, but I think the problem with China's HSR is the amount of problems in such a short time.

The Fukushima disaster was due to one in a hundred year disaster - something you can't say about thunderstorms in China.

Not until very recently there were no HSR to speak of. This is the first summer (i.e - rainy season) which you have a massive HSR operation. And in such a short time we had so many malfunctions.

I think that the problem in China these days (and it is something that reflects on what happens in the ministry of Railroads) is Hubris. This attitude of "our trains are better than Japanese" etc is hurting China IMHO.

Like in all Greek tragedies, Hubris leads to disaster. China should be more humble - buy foreign technology when needed or use more foreign experts and so on.
I agree with you that it's a dick move to declare Chinese HSR is better than the Japanese. But to be fair massive HSR operation has been relatively trouble free for the past several years (and survived many rainy seasons), the only thing changed is the opening of Beijing-Shanghai line last month. I hate to say this but IMHO the carriages performed extremely well under such huge impact, the design and quality of the train probably saved hundreds of lives, the same can't be said for the signaling system.

I think it's premature to declare foreign systems are superior to domestic system at this stage, when the root cause is still under investigation. The German ICE and maglev demo line killed way more people than CRH yet we are not doubting German technology. Like I have mentioned before, the only recent event comparable to this is the crash of Air France flight 447, something that shouldn't happen yet happened.

This accident is a shame on the global HSR industry because China is probably the largest market out there. Although most trains are domestically sourced now, foreign train makers and suppliers are still getting subsystems contracts such as signaling and creature comfort.
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Old July 24th, 2011, 11:57 PM   #2802
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CRH crash current death toll is currently 35-43 higher that the Lathen Maglev crash.
The casualty figures also seem inconsistent with only 200 odd injured even though the governments claiming there was 100 in every carriage (for a total of over 1,600) and 4 carriages fell off the viaduct, never mind collision injuries.
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Old July 25th, 2011, 12:16 AM   #2803
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Well I was comparing ICE accident with this one, and the Lathen crash with the 06 Shanghai transrapid fire. I think in China only people who are admitted to the hospital are counted as injuried, cuts and bruises or people who gets treated onsite and released are not counted in that figure. I think one of the carriage that fell off the viaduct is a first class seater, which IIRC has a 55 seat capacity.
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Old July 25th, 2011, 03:41 AM   #2804
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news press: MOR apologizes to public

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sina.com
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Old July 25th, 2011, 06:59 AM   #2805
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I think Eschede disaster (German ICE crash, 101 dead) is only slightly comparable to the current Chinese accident. ICE had a new wheel technology thos days which unfortunately failed - this bad idea has 101 victims. That kind of wheels were replaced as soon as possible.
On the other side: signaling and automatic train control system had a serious defect in China Saturday. I am not sure whether there is CTCS used in this line or not. If it is, then not only all CTCS controlled tracks but even all ETCS controlled lines in Europe shall be stopped immediately until further investigations since the system proved not being reliable (ETCS and CTCS are basically the same).
Such kind of crash is totally avoidble by using 80 years old technology. Consequently we must consider that signaling system had a very very serious fail by not disabling the possibility of such a crash. And you may never know if that kind of system will not have a similar fail somewhere today or the other day. If a train, standing on the track and having no electricity at all, but being not derailed, nothing special, standing on the rails in a very common way, is invisible for the signaling, it is an unacceptable behavior of the system. In this case it is not a quality problem but a BASIC issue which must be fixed as soon as possible and until it happens very hard safety actions must be done in order to avoid such crashes.
It can never happen again.
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Old July 25th, 2011, 07:12 AM   #2806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WatcherZero View Post
CRH crash current death toll is currently 35-43 higher that the Lathen Maglev crash.
The casualty figures also seem inconsistent with only 200 odd injured even though the governments claiming there was 100 in every carriage (for a total of over 1,600) and 4 carriages fell off the viaduct, never mind collision injuries.
you can't do senceless question before take a look into the situation.

according to MOR conference, 558 pasengers on board on D301, capaticy 630, onboard rate 89%, 1072 paggengears on board on D3115, capacity 1299, on board rate 83%.

just doing some reserch on Wikipedia,

D301: CRH2-139E formation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRH2#CRH2E_2

1ZE+6WR+1CA+7WR+1ZE, derailed coach No.1 to No.4, capacity 55+40+40+40=175

D3115: CRH1-046B formation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRH1#CRH1B_2
8ZE+1CA+4ZE+3ZY,derailed coach No.15 and No.16, capacity 72+64=136

so the passenger onboard on derailedcould be 175+136 =311 at most, say nothing of the on board rate in not 100%.

from this accident we could also discolse that the MOR didn't lied about the on board rate of CRH, even on the Beijing-Fuzhou service which took you 13 hours 36 minuts to travel 2,283 km, and most of the coaches are soft sleeper coach that means it will cost 1,335 RMB for the whole jurney, by any points it's a luxurious price at Chinese standard, it's not as Japanese and American media stated that the on board rate of CRH is very low.

Last edited by greenlion; July 25th, 2011 at 07:22 AM.
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Old July 25th, 2011, 07:15 AM   #2807
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
I think Eschede disaster (German ICE crash, 101 dead) is only slightly comparable to the current Chinese accident. ICE had a new wheel technology thos days which unfortunately failed - this bad idea has 101 victims. That kind of wheels were replaced as soon as possible.
On the other side: signaling and automatic train control system had a serious defect in China Saturday. I am not sure whether there is CTCS used in this line or not. If it is, then not only all CTCS controlled tracks but even all ETCS controlled lines in Europe shall be stopped immediately until further investigations since the system proved not being reliable (ETCS and CTCS are basically the same).
Such kind of crash is totally avoidble by using 80 years old technology. Consequently we must consider that signaling system had a very very serious fail by not disabling the possibility of such a crash. And you may never know if that kind of system will not have a similar fail somewhere today or the other day. If a train, standing on the track and having no electricity at all, but being not derailed, nothing special, standing on the rails in a very common way, is invisible for the signaling, it is an unacceptable behavior of the system. In this case it is not a quality problem but a BASIC issue which must be fixed as soon as possible and until it happens very hard safety actions must be done in order to avoid such crashes.
It can never happen again.
this line use CTCS3, Basically based on Japanese technology
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Old July 25th, 2011, 07:45 AM   #2808
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Hi greenlion, just a question for you. Because it is had for me to access chinese railway forums.

Is this rumour true?

I heard that the CTCS was knocked out by lightning, and to avoid shutting down the whole line again, main dispatch and shangai dispatch was ordered to shut down ATP and LKJ and run the D"s on dispatch order only.

Then someone on board 3115 hit the in carrige emergency stop, causing 3115 to lose power, then 301 hit 3115 3 min later.

Is this true? The guy telling me this says he got it from his friend at Shanghai bureau.
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Old July 25th, 2011, 07:47 AM   #2809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlion View Post
this line use CTCS3, Basically based on Japanese technology
Don't post non-sense. This line uses CTCS-2.

The signaling was destroyed by the lightning, but the train dispatchers were under media pressure due to the recent train delays on the Beijing–Shanghai HSR Line, so they decided to temporarily disable the Automatic Train Protection and let the train run blinded.

A brief report in Chinese:
Quote:
2011年7月23日20:31分,杭深线永嘉至温州南区间下行线K583+00处发生D301次与前行D3115次追尾事故,造成D3115次第15、16位脱轨,D301次第1至4位脱轨(其中1至2位坠落桥下)。
  一、调度作业过程
  2011年7月23日19:34分,温州南反映D3212次4道开车时跳出站信号,调度询问司机有没有动车,在确定司机没有动车后取消进路重新开放信号。
  19:36分,因温州南站4道出站信号无法开放,调度布置温州南站转为非常站控。
  19:44分,调度接温州南站报告:车站联锁显示下行三接近红光带,车站CTC界面无显示。D3212次4道开车后,调度布置车站转回分散自律。
  19:45分,温州南站报告与永嘉、瓯海站接近、离去区段显示红光带。
  19:53分,调度布置温州南站转入非常站控,19:55分布置瓯海转入非常站控。
  20:01分、20:07分调度联系温州南站工务到位没有,车站汇报未到位。
  20:14分,调度布置D3115次永嘉站开车,通知司机区间遇红灯后转目视模式20km/h运行。
  20:20分,温州南站反映下行四接近红光带闪烁,与瓯海区间无红光带。
  20:24分,D301次永嘉站开车。
  20:26分,调度联系温州南站,车站反映D3115次已三接近,CTC系统区间红光带已消失。
  20:31分,D3115次司机反映:车厢内旅客按紧急制动停车,接触网停电。
  20:37分,调度布置温州南站联系D301次司机降弓。
  20:39分,调度接温州南站报告:D3115次司机反映尾部车辆脱轨,有半截车厢吊在桥上。
  二、车站作业过程
  (一)列车运行情况:
  1. 永嘉站:D3115次3道19:51到(办客),20:15开;
  D301次Ⅰ道20:12停,20:24开。
  2. 温州南:D3212次19:36开。
  (二)运统-46登销记情况:
  1. 永嘉站:无登记。
  2. 温州南站:19:39分登记永嘉-温州南下行线三接近轨道电路出现红光带并通知工、电务,工务于20:30分销记,电务未销记。
  (三)车站转入非常站控有关情况
  19:54分左右永嘉站接调度通知模式需转为非常站控,永嘉站于19:55分转入非常站控。
  20:12分调度员通知永嘉站D3115次开车,永嘉站20:13分与温州南站办理D3115次预告,D3115次20:15开。
  20:22分调度员通知永嘉站D301次开车,永嘉站20:24分与温州南站办理D301次预告,D301次20:24开。
  因D3115次区间运行时间长,温州南站联系D3115次司机,司机回答区间信号不稳定;
   据永嘉车站值班员、温州南站车站值班员反映:20:06分,永嘉车站值班员车机联控呼叫D301次司机,“车站已转非常站控”;在D301次距 D3115次6—7个闭塞分区时,温州南站车站值班员车机联控呼叫D301次司机,“ D3115次在区间,注意运行。” D301次司机应答知道。
   【简】7月23日19:39上海局杭深线永嘉-温州南间下行线温州南3接近因雷击造成红光带,通知工务、电务人员,19:54永嘉站转为非常站 控,19:55温州南站转为非常站控,工务20:30销记,D3115次(杭州-福州南)在永嘉站19:51停,20:15开,D301次(北京南-福 州)永嘉20:12停,20:24开,D3115次在温州南3接近信号处20:23/25停车,以目视模式开车,20时39分D301次与D3115次在 永嘉(K570+680)-温州南(K588+863)间K585+700附近发生追尾,造成D3115次13、14、15、16位脱线,D301次 1-4位脱线(其中1、2位高架桥上掉下,桥深约15米
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Old July 25th, 2011, 07:52 AM   #2810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hydropod View Post
Hi greenlion, just a question for you. Because it is had for me to access chinese railway forums.

Is this rumour true?

I heard that the CTCS was knocked out by lightning, and to avoid shutting down the whole line again, main dispatch and shangai dispatch was ordered to shut down ATP and LKJ and run the D"s on dispatch order only.

Then someone on board 3115 hit the in carrige emergency stop, causing 3115 to lose power, then 301 hit 3115 3 min later.

Is this true? The guy telling me this says he got it from his friend at Shanghai bureau.
yes it's true, see yaohua2000 below, like I said before, there must be human factor in the accident.
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Old July 25th, 2011, 07:54 AM   #2811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaohua2000 View Post
Don't post non-sense. This line uses CTCS-2.

The signaling was destroyed by the lightning, but the train dispatchers were under media pressure due to the recent train delays on the Beijing–Shanghai HSR Line, so they decided to temporarily disable the Automatic Train Protection and let the train run blinded.

A brief report in Chinese:
wow, what retards. I hope they get prosecuted, hopefully even the death penalty.
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Old July 25th, 2011, 07:55 AM   #2812
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Under no circumstances whatsoever should any safety systems be turned off, I thought everyone knew that, least of all those who are actually running the train network
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Old July 25th, 2011, 08:16 AM   #2813
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Quote:
,“ D3115次在区间,注意运行。” D301次司机应答知道。
Bastard what the hell is the order meaning under such kind of situation, Indistinct and misleading, the dispacher missed important infomation on the report.
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Old July 25th, 2011, 08:31 AM   #2814
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Thank you for posting the exact information, Yaohua. Now we can put speculation on the cause of the accident to rest.

I think this highlights a problem when workers are put under undue pressure to meet targets though. There was a case where a Japanese train operator exceeded speed on a corner resulting in derailment of the train as he was afraid of the train running late.

Punctuality is great, but at the expense of safety? Not so good.
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Old July 25th, 2011, 10:58 AM   #2815
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According to Chinese netizens there is a person falling of the carriage at 2:56.
I checked it and there is indeed something coming out on the left bottom corner but the image quality isn't good enough to assert with 100% certainty that it is a person.

What do you guys think ?

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjg4MTM2MTQ4.html
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Old July 25th, 2011, 11:02 AM   #2816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaohua2000 View Post
Don't post non-sense. This line uses CTCS-2.

The signaling was destroyed by the lightning, but the train dispatchers were under media pressure due to the recent train delays on the Beijing–Shanghai HSR Line, so they decided to temporarily disable the Automatic Train Protection and let the train run blinded.
Disable the Automatic Train Control System?
Is that even possible?
I thought those systems were integrally built-in to the communication/signalling system.
Sounds fishy to me.
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Old July 25th, 2011, 11:09 AM   #2817
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I'm getting rumors that Chinese authority has destroyed and buried the wreckage. Is that hiding the evidence or what!? Can someone confirm or elaborate on this?
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Old July 25th, 2011, 11:23 AM   #2818
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I'm getting rumors that Chinese authority has destroyed and buried the wreckage. Is that hiding the evidence or what!? Can someone confirm or elaborate on this?
http://news.sohu.com/20110725/n314410737.shtml

至于对车体进行掩埋的原因,王勇平说,这不是铁道部的决定,自己也是在到达温州后,别人向其汇报时才得知,当时汇报人解释如此做的原因是,考虑到现场复杂的抢险环境,高架桥下就是泥塘,为了便于抢险,才不得不这么做。王勇平说,自己相信这个解释。
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Old July 25th, 2011, 11:40 AM   #2819
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it's clearly this accident is avoidable, it's man's fault to cause the disaster.
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Old July 25th, 2011, 01:29 PM   #2820
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Quote:
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Disable the Automatic Train Control System?
Is that even possible?
I thought those systems were integrally built-in to the communication/signalling system.
Sounds fishy to me.
They would have to switch off ATP for low-speed manoeuvring

Eg. going in and out of depots with no signalling.
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