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Old July 27th, 2011, 05:57 AM   #2881
SamuraiBlue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
It's actually understandable that some people will think this way. After going through a lot of pictures and read a lot of witness accounts, I have a theory myself. Under the viaduct were several small shallow fish ponds, which made it almost impossible for large machinery to negotiate. Therefore excavators were brought in and dug out the earth between them, then pumped out the water, and created a relatively flat, pit like area. Then they hoisted one of D3115's last carriages off the viaduct and placed it there. Now because that car is almost crushed flat (it went under D301), and also because it sits in a pit now, it will give bystanders the false impression of burial.

What puzzles me is that CRH2 has a more "pointed" nose than CRH1, yet most carriages that derailed and went over the viaduct are from D301 (CRH2).
I do not think these picture collaborates with your story.





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Old July 27th, 2011, 07:05 AM   #2882
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I do not think these picture collaborates with your story.
I appreciate that you pointed out these pictures, as they sure look suspicious, and now I do see that the driver's cabin of CRH2 D301 was destroyed onsite. From the picture in my next post we'll see that it broke off from the rest of the train upon impact, when it was pushed into the pit half of it remained as one piece until in the second picture you posted, which shows the pit full of debris which may or may not contain pieces of aforementioned structure.

Having said that, I still fail to see an effort to crush the carriages and bury them. Your second picture shows the pit contains most of the wreckage, yet the excavators are busy working getting the temporary access route ready, instead of covering up the pit. The last picture supports this theory because it's obvious those pieces are hauled away instead of buried onsite. The high dirt content suggests they come from the pit.

Picture #3 is a good example of even Xinhua reporters don't know what they were talking about. It shows D3115 coach 15, the caption says the carriage is being dismantled, which is incorrect because coach 15 largely remains as it was until it's transported away on a flatbed semi (in the background of my first picture and a close up in my second picture).
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Old July 27th, 2011, 07:10 AM   #2883
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Some pictures of CRH2 D301's driver cabin.





The one on the right is the remaining part of D301 coach 1, this cross section is where the driver's cabin was severed from.
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Old July 27th, 2011, 07:18 AM   #2884
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The State Council formed an investigation team, The Supreme People's Procuratorate of PRC involves the investigation today, and the accident is characterized as a dereliction crime.
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Old July 27th, 2011, 07:25 AM   #2885
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It should also be noted that all coaches of D3115 remained on the viaduct, which caused its coach 16 being flattened by five coaches of the D301 (coach 5 remained on top of D3115 coach 16 on the viaduct). Coach 16 is almost mowed all the way down to its bogies. I wonder if anyone has stats showing casualty info for each coach, because looking at the picture it's hard to believe that anyone could have survived in such violent impact.

I guess one fortunate factor that the fatality number is not higher is the fact that D3115's last two coaches have first class seats, and D301's coach 2, 3, 4 are all soft sleepers. As a result their capacity, as well as occupation rate are lower than second class seat coaches. Also all but one coaches that fell off the bridge are soft sleepers, so the individual compartments may have helped retain structure integrity and preventing passengers from being thrown too far inside.

Note coach 16 actually starts at the electrical pole on the left, until roughly where the two hard hat guys stand on the right. A significant portion is so flat that it can't be seen. The left of the electrical pole is coach 15.


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Old July 27th, 2011, 07:45 AM   #2886
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God dammit, it's so sad all those people had to die... Everyone knows that the chinese high speed trains are German, French and japanese originals in disguise, so why the f... don't they just bye trains from these countries (if it ain't broke don't fix it) The chinese are trying to patent 20 "original inventions" corcerning these trains, but everyone knows they are just copying western tecnology. I send my best wishes to the victims of this train disaster.
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Old July 27th, 2011, 07:57 AM   #2887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
You are right about haste causing the accident, and I believe that it's the reason behind removing the wreckage quickly too. That is to reopen the line as quickly as possible, which I don't think is smart. Besides the girl there is also an account from PAP firefighters who disobeyed order to lower the carriage hanging on the bridge to the ground because they believed there are still survivors, and actually found a four year old boy alive inside.

I have my doubts about the whole cover up conspiracy theory because I was under the impression that it was management who decided to disregard computer instruction that caused the accident (I could be wrong here). In addition, the black boxes have been taken away by police for investigation. Whatever caused D301 receiving all green light, destroying the carriages will not help cover up, so what's the point. Regarding the train heads, they were almost completely destroyed in the accident, I've not yet seen anything showing they crushing the drivers cabin. I've seen videos of bulldozers using its claw to pray open one carriage though.
Buried or not buried, the problem is that they tried to clear the site too quickly and by that almost caused unnecessary death of a young girl (and maybe they did caused other deaths. We will never know). IMO it is a HUGE issue - at least as important of the accident itself. But I guess every one has different values, so you don't have to agree with me.

However, I agree with you that the reason for clearing the site was not a cover up attempt but simply rushing to get the service running.

The Ministry of Railroads is very tight on cash, so I think there is a huge pressure to get as much revenue as possible.
A day before the accident the ministry failed for the first time to issue bonds:

http://www.mpfinance.com/htm/Finance...ws/ec_eca1.htm

They planed on issuing 20 Billion Yuan but only 18.7 billion were subscribed.
Also:

2010年財務報表顯示,去年鐵道部有6857.01億元的龐大收入,但僅得1500萬元純利,按年下滑99.45%;此外,去年帳面現金僅有950億元,卻面對全年要償還1500億元本息的壓力。而截至今年首季,鐵道部總負債更達到1983.6億元,資產負債率逾58%,償債能力成疑。

the profit last year stood at 15 million yuan. With 2 trillion of debt, I can't see how they can ever pay back the debt. Specially when the reported "profit" almost for sure contains some "funny numbers" - like capitalizing a lot of the interest payments or smaller depreciation than needed.
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Old July 27th, 2011, 08:03 AM   #2888
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Originally Posted by coth View Post
point is that IX+ intensity earthquakes happens very often in china, unless you mix up intensity with magnitude
I don't thinnk most people know the difference between intensity and magnitude of an earthquake. So when you said IX +, I bet most people are thinking about Richter scale IX + which the majority of civilian buildings would not be able to withstand anyway.
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Old July 27th, 2011, 08:08 AM   #2889
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Just another brick in the wall.
Like I said, each one to his own. You are free to choice what you believe.
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Old July 27th, 2011, 08:08 AM   #2890
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Unless there is compelling reason like rescue works or avoiding spread of some pollutant agent, there is no reason to clear hastily an accident scene on a transportation accident. This is standards practice worldwide.
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Old July 27th, 2011, 08:12 AM   #2891
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Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
I have never read anything indicating officials said burying part of the wreckage is to keep the technology secrets. In fact I believe the explanation that the digging and burying is to prepare ground to haul the carriages out. Only a small portion of the carriages were crushed, and all buried material were later dug out and hauled away for investigation.

The notion that MOR tries to bury the wreckage to hide evidence is retarded. It's obvious an accident has happened, and right under the eye of an entire nation because reporters are stationed at the scene all day long. Whatever caused the accident can't be hidden even if the entire train is vaporized because it happened higher up at the control center.

I think it's silly that a lot of people are focusing on this "burying wreckage" thing, and miss the more important task that is to find who the hell gave the order to run the trains blind and override CTCS and ATP.
Finally, someone has some sense. Maybe some people watched too many Hollywood airline accident movies.
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Old July 27th, 2011, 08:32 AM   #2892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idoke View Post
Buried or not buried, the problem is that they tried to clear the site too quickly and by that almost caused unnecessary death of a young girl (and maybe they did caused other deaths. We will never know). IMO it is a HUGE issue - at least as important of the accident itself. But I guess every one has different values, so you don't have to agree with me.

However, I agree with you that the reason for clearing the site was not a cover up attempt but simply rushing to get the service running.

The Ministry of Railroads is very tight on cash, so I think there is a huge pressure to get as much revenue as possible.
A day before the accident the ministry failed for the first time to issue bonds:

http://www.mpfinance.com/htm/Finance...ws/ec_eca1.htm

They planed on issuing 20 Billion Yuan but only 18.7 billion were subscribed.
Also:

2010年財務報表顯示,去年鐵道部有6857.01億元的龐大收入,但僅得1500萬元純利,按年下滑99.45%;此外,去年帳面現金僅有950億元,卻面對全年要償還1500億元本息的壓力。而截至今年首季,鐵道部總負債更達到1983.6億元,資產負債率逾58%,償債能力成疑。

the profit last year stood at 15 million yuan. With 2 trillion of debt, I can't see how they can ever pay back the debt. Specially when the reported "profit" almost for sure contains some "funny numbers" - like capitalizing a lot of the interest payments or smaller depreciation than needed.
Wow, another angle in the conspiracy theory. I wonder what is next.
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Old July 27th, 2011, 08:52 AM   #2893
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Originally Posted by stoneybee View Post
Wow, another angle in the conspiracy theory. I wonder what is next.
So you are saying that the local police are lying and that the ministry of railroads didn't rush the rescue effort?

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjg4NzY2OTMy.html
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Old July 27th, 2011, 09:11 AM   #2894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minba View Post
God dammit, it's so sad all those people had to die... Everyone knows that the chinese high speed trains are German, French and japanese originals in disguise, so why the f... don't they just bye trains from these countries (if it ain't broke don't fix it) The chinese are trying to patent 20 "original inventions" corcerning these trains, but everyone knows they are just copying western tecnology. I send my best wishes to the victims of this train disaster.
Thank you for the condolences, but for areas that you obvious have no idea, I suggest more reading than commenting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by idoke View Post
Buried or not buried, the problem is that they tried to clear the site too quickly and by that almost caused unnecessary death of a young girl (and maybe they did caused other deaths. We will never know). IMO it is a HUGE issue - at least as important of the accident itself. But I guess every one has different values, so you don't have to agree with me.

However, I agree with you that the reason for clearing the site was not a cover up attempt but simply rushing to get the service running.
I'm not saying that it's not important, on the contrary I think it's crucial that the people who ordered the site to be hastily cleared and line reopened held accountable. IMO it's silly to think that burying tons of train wreck in fronts of millions of people will hide the evidence from the State Council and the people of China.
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Old July 27th, 2011, 09:16 AM   #2895
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IMO it's silly to think that burying tons of train wreck in fronts of millions of people will hide the evidence from the State Council and the people of China.
I agree.
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Old July 27th, 2011, 10:11 AM   #2896
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Burying the wreckage will hide little considering the black boxes have been recovered.
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Old July 27th, 2011, 11:36 AM   #2897
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Originally Posted by hydropod View Post
ShiJiaZhuang may sit on a potiential earthquake zone, but just for that design the station to take a richter 7+ earthquake? How many stations in the world can take a richter 7 anyway? Crazy.
One 7.0 magnitude can cause VI intensity, another 7.0 magnitude can cause XI intensity. There are no buildings that meet magnitude scale. All development meets intensity scale.
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Old July 27th, 2011, 12:46 PM   #2898
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Just find this on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Digital_Times

China Digital Times (CDT; Chinese: 中国数字时代) is a bilingual "collaborative news website covering China’s social and political transition and its emerging role in the world," according to the site's About page. The site is run by the Counter-Power Lab at the School of Information, University of California, Berkeley, and is edited primarily by faculty and students at the Journalism School, with contributions from volunteer bloggers.

So in my very own opnion you could hardly even regard it as a "Media" as it is actually a toy of college students and maybe most of them, if not all of them had never been to China.

now it becomes a "Authoritative" source in western culture for infomations about China?
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Old July 27th, 2011, 01:48 PM   #2899
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Those paragraphs of the apparent censoring attempts have first been circulated on Chinese sites, blogs, and video sites (Sohu, Sina, Tudou etc), and 9 times out of 10 such 'leaks' are quite accurate. Most of the damning pictures and videos of the rescue and clean-up operation come from these sites though some were subsequently mysteriously 'harmonised'. They are a damn sight more accurate than the national papers however much the latter are trying to get you to think otherwise. It is not by accident that papers like the People's Daily sported headlines like 'Party's Love Goes Higher than Tian Shan Mountains'.

Of course anyone with half a brain would realise there's no way one can cover up such a major accident, and any attempt at doing so would lead to a huge backlash, but that didn't stop the MOR and the Propaganda Department from trying, as most of the officials there are from the pre-digital age where such 'PR damage limitation' worked to an extent.

But, I digress, let's just hope the signalling system is properly look at and no-one attempts manual over-ride again, and for gawds say should another accident happen, heavens forbid, don't be in a rush to resume operation.
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Old July 27th, 2011, 03:37 PM   #2900
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Suggesting that this train end car was crushed to provide ballast to bring in equipment is the most ridiculous thing I've heard. Seriously, how many of you guys are government trolls?

If you have a crash like this, you want to know how well the structures performed in the impact. Or at least you do if you are designing your own trains.
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