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Old August 11th, 2011, 04:40 PM   #3001
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Old August 11th, 2011, 05:14 PM   #3002
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Anyone know if these latest incidents will have any impact on the production/rollout of the CRH380D? Does anyone have any latest info on their development?
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Old August 11th, 2011, 05:57 PM   #3003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
Don't know the validity of the story anyone else care to verify?
Yes that report is more or less accurate, CNR Changchun is delaying delivery of 17 CRH380BL trainsets pending internal investigation of several problems they discovered during their QC runs in late July early August. So far it's limited to CRH380BLs made by Changchun, no delivery delays reported at another CRH380BL maker, Tangshan. The problems cited includes false axle temp alarms, traction system signal interruption causing protection system to reduce locomotion, and automatic pantograph disengaging due to switch malfunction. CNR said the involved components are a mix of foreign and domestic sources, and they all passed QC when received, suggesting compatibility issues. However it's unclear why Tangshan isn't affected, possibly because their CRH380BL has a slightly different design.

Last edited by hmmwv; August 11th, 2011 at 07:14 PM.
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Old August 11th, 2011, 09:59 PM   #3004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Yes that report is more or less accurate, CNR Changchun is delaying delivery of 17 CRH380BL trainsets pending internal investigation of several problems they discovered during their QC runs in late July early August. So far it's limited to CRH380BLs made by Changchun, no delivery delays reported at another CRH380BL maker, Tangshan. The problems cited includes false axle temp alarms, traction system signal interruption causing protection system to reduce locomotion, and automatic pantograph disengaging due to switch malfunction. CNR said the involved components are a mix of foreign and domestic sources, and they all passed QC when received, suggesting compatibility issues. However it's unclear why Tangshan isn't affected, possibly because their CRH380BL has a slightly different design.
Don't forget that Changchun are a new factory. Tangshan has been building HS trains for years now.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 03:05 AM   #3005
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Hopefully this will latest developments will put Europe and North America in alert for this unsafe and cheating (stolen intellectual property) trains.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 04:00 AM   #3006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
The problems cited includes false axle temp alarms, traction system signal interruption causing protection system to reduce locomotion, and automatic pantograph disengaging due to switch malfunction. CNR said the involved components are a mix of foreign and domestic sources, and they all passed QC when received, suggesting compatibility issues. However it's unclear why Tangshan isn't affected, possibly because their CRH380BL has a slightly different design.
This simply does not make sense.
If it used the same components and manufactured under the same series then the design should also be the same or it would make maintenance extremely difficult after delivery.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 04:56 AM   #3007
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Quote:
Outrage at Wenzhou disaster pushes China to suspend bullet train project

By Clifford Coonan in Hong Kong


China has put the brakes on its flagship high-speed rail project, freezing approval of new railway schemes and halting some bullet train manufacturing after a crash last month that killed 40 people and dented public confidence in the government.


Since the collision on 23 July, the Chinese government has been accused of putting the desire to modernise and innovate ahead of safety, with critics saying the system is too expensive and too dangerous.

The crash happened when one bullet train was stopped on a viaduct near the eastern city of Wenzhou after a lightning strike and another high-speed train ploughed into it. The accident has been blamed on faulty signalling equipment. "We will suspend for the time being the examination and approval of new railway construction projects," said the State Council, or cabinet.

The Railways Minister also promised a nationwide safety inspection and announced further reductions in the top speed of bullet trains following cuts in April. "This accident exposed the weaknesses lying in the railway transportation safety and management," admitted Sheng Guangzu in comments on the council's website. A state-owned manufacturer said it would suspend production of its high-speed trains used on the Beijing-Shanghai line while it investigates equipment failures. China North Locomotive and Rolling Stock gave no further details but the official Xinhua News Agency said trains "abnormally stopped" on three occasions due to faulty sensor signals.

The level of public outrage in reaction to the crash was intense. It was so powerful that even China's official media got in on the act. The normally placid People's Daily newspaper, which is effectively the Communist Party mouthpiece, wrote that China did not need "blood-soaked GDP".

The decision to put the project on ice came after an executive meeting of the State Council, which was presided over by Premier Wen Jiabao. The high-speed rail system is a prestige project for the Communist Party, designed to showcase China's innovative abilities and technological prowess, and Beijing insists the project is still a runner. "China will unswervingly continue its development of high-speed railways," the government said.

The project was one of the largest recipients of the trillions of yuan made available by the Chinese government for infrastructure projects after the economic crisis of 2008.

But the national rail system has been soaked in controversy. Before last month's crash, Mr Sheng's predecessor, Liu Zhijun, was sacked in February over corruption charges, after he allegedly took more than 800 million yuan (£77m) in kickbacks over several years on contracts linked to the high-speed network.

Mr Sheng told Xinhua that routes with a designed maximum speed of 350kph (220mph) will now run at 300kph. Beijing has also shelved plans to expand the high-speed network to 13,000km of railway by the end of this year. China launched its bullet trains in 2007. By the end of 2010, 8,358km of high-speed railways had been put into operation, ranking China first in the world in terms of length.

Premier Wen was forced to make a public statement that he was too sick to visit the accident site immediately after the accident – his absence had sparked widespread public anger. Known as "Grandpa Wen" for his comforting appearances at times of national stress, Mr Wen promised a full and frank investigation into the crash, but the damage had been done.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...t-2336254.html

Same story in the Scotsman http://news.scotsman.com/news/China-...-on.6817204.jp

And news from Steel Industry Briefing (subscription) that they have stopped manufacture of steel rails.

Now im not surprised all the linespeed reductions (which started before the crash with the corruption scandal) have continued, there were serious under speccing and misrepresentation of lines technological limits. However I am surprised that the crash has had such a political impact when higher casualty mining accidents happen several times a year.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 05:48 AM   #3008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Hopefully this will latest developments will put Europe and North America in alert for this unsafe and cheating (stolen intellectual property) trains.
We never stolen anything , they stolen the designs from us....
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Old August 12th, 2011, 07:51 AM   #3009
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54 trains to be recalled.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english201..._131045456.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14501078
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Old August 12th, 2011, 09:19 AM   #3010
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We never stolen anything , they stolen the designs from us....
That is what I meant. Chinese stole patent-protected and industrial secrets from Western rail companies. Siemens was the one hit most.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 10:54 AM   #3011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WatcherZero View Post
there were serious under speccing and misrepresentation of lines technological limits.
Man I don't know why you kept on saying this, unless you just hate the idea that China can have HSR. I have pointed out your mistake for saying that rail minister said the lines were designed for 300km/h several days ago, yet here you are still spreading lies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WatcherZero View Post
So far it's limited to CRH380BLs made by CNR Changchun, but I have a feeling that the recall will spread to other CNR plants. There is a potential that CSR will be impacted later too, note the same problem cited in the recall also occurred before on CSR-made CRH380As as well.

Last edited by hmmwv; August 12th, 2011 at 11:04 AM.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 10:59 AM   #3012
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Quote:
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Hopefully this will latest developments will put Europe and North America in alert for this unsafe and cheating (stolen intellectual property) trains.
In alert for what? Chinese trains will never have any chance of winning any contracts in EU or NA anyway, regardless of what has happened recently. Just like there will be zero chance for ARJ21 or C919 to get into Western market even if they get FAA approval. The Chinese trains don't even have significant cost advantage over European designs, and the latter are generally more mature and have better support infrastructure, what would anybody pick Chinese ones.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 11:54 AM   #3013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
That is what I meant. Chinese stole patent-protected and industrial secrets from Western rail companies. Siemens was the one hit most.
Yet Siemens issued notes like the following about them selling trains to China, seemingly like any other business deal :

http://www.siemens.com/press/en/pres...r200803015.htm

http://www.siemens.com/innovation/en...speed_rail.htm

So selling and stealing are same things?
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Old August 12th, 2011, 12:05 PM   #3014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Yet Siemens issued notes like the following about them selling trains to China, seemingly like any other business deal :

http://www.siemens.com/press/en/pres...r200803015.htm

http://www.siemens.com/innovation/en...speed_rail.htm

So selling and stealing are same things?
I think the dispute is not whether licence production of CRH3 is legal, Siemens is happy about that deal and never complained about it. The problem is when CNR and CSR started filing for international patents on certain CRH380A/B technologies which Siemens claims are theirs. If the patents are approved, trains carry those patents can be exported, which Siemens doesn't want to see it happen, and was never part of the license production agreement.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 01:30 PM   #3015
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In alert for what? Chinese trains will never have any chance of winning any contracts in EU or NA anyway, regardless of what has happened recently.
You might have to eat your words, mhhwv, and perhaps sooner thank you think. Chinese manufacturers have already sold locs in Australia and New Zealand, and other rolling stock in France. I grant you it was not high-speed equipment.

Also, what you said about "never having any chance" was what we used to say about the Japanese manufacturers of shinkansen trains. And, look what happened to Hitachi in the UK.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 01:31 PM   #3016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
That is what I meant. Chinese stole patent-protected and industrial secrets from Western rail companies. Siemens was the one hit most.
If you make posts like this, you need to post evidence to back up your claims. If you make unfounded accusations then I'm afraid I can only interpret such posts as trolling.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 05:43 PM   #3017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
I think the dispute is not whether licence production of CRH3 is legal, Siemens is happy about that deal and never complained about it. The problem is when CNR and CSR started filing for international patents on certain CRH380A/B technologies which Siemens claims are theirs. If the patents are approved, trains carry those patents can be exported, which Siemens doesn't want to see it happen, and was never part of the license production agreement.
But Siemens can definitely appeal to stop the patents from being granted. Have they done so or launched other legal action?
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Old August 12th, 2011, 06:13 PM   #3018
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You might have to eat your words, mhhwv, and perhaps sooner thank you think. Chinese manufacturers have already sold locs in Australia and New Zealand, and other rolling stock in France. I grant you it was not high-speed equipment.

Also, what you said about "never having any chance" was what we used to say about the Japanese manufacturers of shinkansen trains. And, look what happened to Hitachi in the UK.
At least it's not gonna happen before Chinese cars are sold here (BYD fleet sale to CA doesn't count), and people have been talking about that for ages. You mentioned Australia and New Zealand, but that's not HSR, which is what we have been discussing. Who said anything about Shinkansens not having chances? They are the pioneer of HSR so I'm actually surprised it's not widely exported. I believe one issue they had before is that Europeans don't trust Shinkansen's crashworthiness, the recent crash in China has proven that the E2 is designed extremely well in that regard.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 06:16 PM   #3019
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But Siemens can definitely appeal to stop the patents from being granted. Have they done so or launched other legal action?
I don't think they have officially launched any legal action, part of the reason is that the patents in questions were reportedly only "based" on Siemens technology, not copied or even derived, so the vague definition is the main point of dispute. Also they would not want to risk future business relationship with MOR, since they are still a major partner in areas of signalling and train subsystems, not just in HSR but rail in general.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 06:25 PM   #3020
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If you make posts like this, you need to post evidence to back up your claims. If you make unfounded accusations then I'm afraid I can only interpret such posts as trolling.
Okay. I thought the Siemens-Chinese controversy about reexporting technologies that were part of their exclusive license agreement were facts of public knowledge. I will get some time this weekend and try to build the case, then.
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