CHINA | High Speed Rail

[hmmwv]

Like I said before Sheng Guangzu is just a bureaucrat, his appointment is purely political.

[Mika Montwald]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Okay. I thought the Siemens-Chinese controversy about reexporting technologies that were part of their exclusive license agreement were facts of public knowledge. I will get some time this weekend and try to build the case, then.

Public knowledge?
Showing some ignoramusitis.

We are all EAGERLY waiting for you to show some solid proof to back up your "stealing accusation" this coming Monday 2011 AUG 15.

Your muddy reputation is on the line if you show up anywhere in SSC (meaning any other SSC forum) empty handed.

[NCT]

We can give Liu credit for his enthusiasm for the railways, but he was over-enthusiastic, to the point the need for speed put quality into question, and he did leave a rather messy legacy as events have turned out. Then you have Sheng who's clearly not interested, whose responses to problems are always reactive rather than proactive.

[coth]

Originally Posted by sasalove

Current 350kph route will decrease to 300kph so Wuhan Guangzou Shenzhen will run 300kph. Other 250kph routes will now run 200kph. 200kph routes will now run 160kph.

this is kinda stupid unless there is something else behind it. there is no difference between 350 and 250 kmph in term of safety. anything above 130 kmph is unsafe as you won't have a time to apply emergency breaks when visually observing some obstacle.

[hkskyline]

Originally Posted by coth

this is kinda stupid unless there is something else behind it. there is no difference between 350 and 250 kmph in term of safety. anything above 130 kmph is unsafe as you won't have a time to apply emergency breaks when visually observing some obstacle.

My impression was the speed cut was due to operational cost reasons. It's very expensive to operate at high speeds and slowing it down may help breakeven.

[Northridge]

Originally Posted by yaohua2000

No. It's a fault of the new Ministry, the fault of Sheng Guangzu, and the fault of the ones who chose Sheng Guangzu and as the Minister, not the fault of the system.

I don't know if you understand what I said? My English aren't perfect. Sorry.

What I mean with "the whole system" is the whole technical infrastructure in the Chinese high speed trains. It's obvious that the engineers and the people on top would be to blame for this, not the bad weather. But i wonder if the whole system is build with glitches and faults?

I remember I asked myself that 10 min intervals are very tight on a 350kmh line.

[hmmwv]

Originally Posted by NCT

We can give Liu credit for his enthusiasm for the railways, but he was over-enthusiastic, to the point the need for speed put quality into question, and he did leave a rather messy legacy as events have turned out. Then you have Sheng who's clearly not interested, whose responses to problems are always reactive rather than proactive.

I think at the begining Liu was not only pushing speed, but also quality, however he built a culture in the MOR that pursue speed at all cost, and it's been taken advantage of by lower level managers and subcontractors. When the whole project got too big, Liu lost the ability to micro manage everything. Most of the problems surfaced are on lines constructed or converted after the inital batch (2007 and earlier). On the other hand, Sheng is not only not interested in HSR, but he benefits from discrediting Liu's achievements. I hope he get his ass fired.

[hmmwv]

Originally Posted by hkskyline

My impression was the speed cut was due to operational cost reasons. It's very expensive to operate at high speeds and slowing it down may help breakeven.

I think the latest speed reductions (Beijing-Tianjin ICL and Shanghai-Hangzhou HSR) are related to CRH380BL recalls from CNR Changchun. The problem may not be specific to that plant, Tangshan coule get dragged in as well, which means their CRH380BLs running on the two aforementioned lines may have problems too.

[AlexNL]

Originally Posted by Northridge

I remember I asked myself that 10 min intervals are very tight on a 350kmh line.

Then you should definitely visit France and spend a visit to the LGV Nord (between Lille and Paris) or LGV Sud-Est, where a trains runs as often as every 3 minutes in both directions.

So far, 0 people have died while inside a TGV train, while they've been running for 30 years now.

[yaohua2000]

Originally Posted by Northridge

I don't know if you understand what I said? My English aren't perfect. Sorry.

What I mean with "the whole system" is the whole technical infrastructure in the Chinese high speed trains. It's obvious that the engineers and the people on top would be to blame for this, not the bad weather. But i wonder if the whole system is build with glitches and faults?

I don't think the Sheng Guangzu thing is part of the "whole system". He's not even qualified. He must be a mole sent by rail haters or competitors such as the air industry. Read those propaganda all over the news, I believe there must be something dirty behind this.

[hkskyline]

Originally Posted by hmmwv

I think the latest speed reductions (Beijing-Tianjin ICL and Shanghai-Hangzhou HSR) are related to CRH380BL recalls from CNR Changchun. The problem may not be specific to that plant, Tangshan coule get dragged in as well, which means their CRH380BLs running on the two aforementioned lines may have problems too.

But isn't the speed cut across the board? Even before the crash, there has been talk within China that the HSR network is too expensive and beyond the reach of the commonfolks, especially the rural poor. Back then, cutting speeds and ticket prices was already drawn up as a potential solution. I think the crash just pushed the pendulum in that direction even faster.

[hmmwv]

Originally Posted by hkskyline

But isn't the speed cut across the board? Even before the crash, there has been talk within China that the HSR network is too expensive and beyond the reach of the commonfolks, especially the rural poor. Back then, cutting speeds and ticket prices was already drawn up as a potential solution. I think the crash just pushed the pendulum in that direction even faster.

Yes but both Beijing-Tianjin and Shanghai-Hangzhou survived the initial speed reduction. Then the recall came and all the sudden these two lines got the brake as well. That's why I don't think these two cases are related to economic reasons. Remember that they had to give up many of their CRH380A/ALs to reinforce Beijing-Shanghai line after MOR took away 54 CRH380BL trainsets from service on said line.

[Mika Montwald]

Originally Posted by hkskyline

But isn't the speed cut across the board? Even before the crash, there has been talk within China that the HSR network is too expensive and beyond the reach of the commonfolks, especially the rural poor. ... ...

The above observation about rural peasants is absolutely false.

Rural peasants can definitely AFFORD to buy the CRH tickets.

Because, the common folks and rural peasants can easily afford to gamble (playing cards & mahjong) and lose at least 3000+ RMB per year.


How many people in the western world are aware that plenty of common folks and rural peasants are using the expensive AMWAY toothpaste and other expensive AMWAY products??

[stoneybee]

Unfortunately, it looks like that some of our worst fear have materialized. This 7.23 accident has now evolved into pure political play now as many of us have smelled in the very beginning.

Sad day for China HSR !

[hkskyline]

Originally Posted by Mika Montwald

The above observation about rural peasants is absolutely false.

Rural peasants can definitely AFFORD to buy the CRH tickets.

Because, the common folks and rural peasants can easily afford to gamble (playing cards & mahjong) and lose at least 3000+ RMB per year.


How many people in the western world are aware that plenty of common folks and rural peasants are using the expensive AMWAY toothpaste and other expensive AMWAY products??

Then perhaps you can explain why there are incredible lines for cheap train tickets on slower trains during the golden week rushes.

I'm sure most people living in the West can afford designer handbags even at minimum wage salaries, but would they make that spending because they can afford it?

Think you're over-estimating the income earning power of the rural migrant class. They certainly haven't reached middle class incomes yet that the CRH is going after.

[hmmwv]

Originally Posted by hkskyline

I'm sure most people living in the West can afford designer handbags even at minimum wage salaries, but would they make that spending because they can afford it?

You'd be surprised how many people bought the ipad while still on food stamps. A lot of people in the US, even at middle class income level, still live paycheck by paycheck, it's the high cost of mortgage, car ownership, and healthcare that suck out most of the wealth. Oh well that's totally OT so I'll stop here.

I think most people in China, especially migrant workers, valuing saving hugely, that's why they will often go with the cheapest means of transportation. But my experience tells me that plenty of them fill the CRH trains during the Chinese new year travel rush (yeah my mistake to time my travel plan during that period ).

[foxmulder]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Okay. I thought the Siemens-Chinese controversy about reexporting technologies that were part of their exclusive license agreement were facts of public knowledge. I will get some time this weekend and try to build the case, then.

Since you are spending time on it, teach Siemens how to do business You know, I wouldn't equip my enemy with my own weapons...

Jokes aside, all rational people can see Chinese high speed build up has been a bless for Siemens, Kawasaki and Bombardier. If one looks at the deals and amount of money they have made... China is their most profitable costumer.

[stoneybee]

Originally Posted by hkskyline

Then perhaps you can explain why there are incredible lines for cheap train tickets on slower trains during the golden week rushes.

I'm sure most people living in the West can afford designer handbags even at minimum wage salaries, but would they make that spending because they can afford it?

Think you're over-estimating the income earning power of the rural migrant class. They certainly haven't reached middle class incomes yet that the CRH is going after.

Are you kidding me. "People earning minimum wage in the West can afford designer handbags". You obviously have no idea how people with minimum wage lives in the west. I know many of them and none of them are even dear to dream of buying one. That is why Walmart became the world's biggest retailer. Please go to the food bank line up and find out.

[AlexNL]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Okay. I thought the Siemens-Chinese controversy about reexporting technologies that were part of their exclusive license agreement were facts of public knowledge. I will get some time this weekend and try to build the case, then.

We're still waiting.....

[hmmwv]

Chinese Vice Premier calls for thorough rail safety checks
2011-08-16 15:57:39 GMT2011-08-16 23:57:39(Beijing Time) Xinhua English

BEIJING, Aug. 16 (Xinhua) -- Vice Premier Zhang Dejiang on Tuesday urged a thorough overhaul of China's high-speed railways to prevent major accidents.
The checks, to run from mid-August to mid-September, aim to "thoroughly eliminate risks" concerning high-speed railways and "effectively prevent and resolutely curb" major railway accidents to ensure the safety of rail traffic, Zhang said at a mobilization meeting for the checks.
The safety of the country's high-speed railways was questioned after high-speed trains on a line near the eastern city of Wenzhou collided on July 23, leaving 40 people dead and 191 injured.
"The accident cautioned us that safety is the priority for railway development...Starting safety checks is a pressing need to raise the government's credibility and also a key measure to ensure the safety of railway transport," Zhang said.
The safety checks cover high-speed railways that are both in operation and under construction, according to a State Council statement released last week.
The State Administration of Work Safety will lead the inspection on equipment quality, operation safety, and design and quality of railways under construction.
The government will reevaluate the system safety on rail projects that have received government approval but have not commenced construction. It ordered a temporary halt of approval of new railway lines until the safety review can be completed, according to the statement.
The checks will be carried out by 12 teams composed of government officials and 175 technical experts. Officials of Ministry of Railways are not on the list.
The teams should make thorough checks of high-speed railways and not go through the motions, Zhang said.
He encouraged officials and experts to "go deep down to the grass-roots levels" for first-hand information and provide suggestions on how to improve rail safety.
Operations and constructions must be stopped instantly if any potential safety hazards are spotted, Zhang said.
The safety checks are the latest move by the government to regain the public's trust in the country's fast-growing high-speed rail sector.
Effective on Tuesday, bullet trains with a designed maximum speed of 350 km per hour start running at 300 km, those with designed maximum speeds of 250 km per hour run at 200 km per hour, and those with maximum speed 200 km per hour run at 160 km per hour.
Ticket prices have been trimmed accordingly.
"Cutting running speeds of bullet trains during the initial stages is necessary for the ministry to gather experience in the management of railway safety," railway minister Sheng Guangzu said.
Separately, the Ministry of Railways said Tuesday it decided to dismiss the ministry's spokesman Wang Yongping.
Wang's remarks at a press conference on July 24 triggered a torrent of public criticism.
When asked why a two and a half year old girl was pulled out of debris hours after the search and rescue team stopped their operations, he said "that is a miracle of life."
When questioned whether the ministry attempted to cover up the truth of the accident by burying train head, Wang replied the move mainly aimed to facilitate the rescue work. "Their explanation given is this. Whether you believe it or not, I believe it anyway," he said.
Wang will be transferred to a Warsaw-based international railway cooperative organization, according to a railway official who declined to be named.