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Old August 23rd, 2011, 06:42 PM   #3061
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WatcherZero View Post
Just heard another 18 CSR trains (dont know the model) have been pulled from service, and a magazines (Caixin Century Magazine ) alleging that it wasnt the safety systems failures publically said to be the culprit that caused the BL trains to be recalled, the workers found a 7.1mm long, 2.4mm high crack on an axle and Ministry safety rules state that if a crack longer than 2mm is found they must be withdrawn from service.
Haven't heard anything about a possible CSR recall. Regarding the crack that is correct, it was found on July 15th, since July there are two records indicating axle was recommended to be replaced because it didn't pass regular inspection. It's the hallow axle in the driving car closest to the gearbox. The axles were manufactured by Zhibo Lucchini Railway Equipment Co. A joint venture between Zhibo and the Italian Lucchini company, also partially owned by the woman who was connected in Liu Zhijun's case. The company supplies over 60% of HSR axles in China. Currently Ma'anshan Steel is working with MOR to develop a domestic axle replacement.

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Originally Posted by WatcherZero View Post
The head of the Signalling Technology company which took the blame for the crash has died of a heart attack just as the inspection team arrived at the building, he had no previous health problems.
He actually died in Shenzhen while accompanying the State Council team on a inspection tour of the Guangzhou-Hongkong HSR.
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Old August 24th, 2011, 12:20 AM   #3062
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Reuters is saying
Quote:
Ma Cheng, the 55-year-old chairman of the board at China Railway Signal & Communication Corp., collapsed at his office on Monday as investigators arrived at the company
Perhaps the others were recalled as they used the same axles.
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Old August 24th, 2011, 06:57 PM   #3063
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Reuters is saying
There was a correction and apology issued after the initial report. It also stated that many websites used the Caixin article without permission, maybe that's why Reuters didn't get the correction notification.

2011年8月24日上午,中国铁路通信信号集团公司董事长马骋的遗体告别仪式在深圳市殡仪馆进行。8月22日,马骋在深圳进行项目安全检查时,因心脏病突发去世,时年55岁。作为𛠺3动车事故线路列控设备提供商,事故发生后,通号集团成为众矢之的。

By staff reporter Yu Ning and Cao Haoli 08.23.2011 19:39
China Railway Signal Chairman Dies of Heart Attack
CRSC Chair Ma Cheng was one of the leading engineers in the development of communications technology for China's high-speed railways


(Beijing) The Chairman of China Railway Signal and Communication Corp. (CRSC) died of a sudden heart attack on the morning of August 22, during a visit from the State Council's safety inspection team in Shenzhen.

(Ma Cheng. /CRSC Website)
Ma Cheng, former general manager of CRSC, became the company's chairman following its restructuring at the end of 2010. Ma was considered one of the leading engineers in signaling technology for China's high-speed railways.
A source close to Ma said, "He was dealing with a lot of pressure and responsibility. Ma did not have a medical history of heart disease but the autopsy confirmed that it was a sudden heart attack. He was a senior professional in the railway signal engineering industry."
The state-owned company CRSC, one of three enterprises owned by the Ministry of Railways, oversaw integration of the signaling system on the railway where the July 23 train crash occurred and 57 similar projects nationwide.
CRSC and its subsidiary China CREC Railway Electrification Bureau Group jointly signed a 500 million yuan contract in 2008 with the Zhejiang Coastal Railway Co., a company financially backed by local authorities. The contract set out to create a communication system along the railway for 500 million yuan, which included the construction of an electricity grid, power supplies and a signaling system. The contractor CRSC and its affiliate were the main parties responsible for the design, production and engineering of communication lines and signals, in which the signal malfunctioning on July 23 was found to be one of the major causes leading to the deadly accident, which killed at least 40 people and injured more than 190.
Propelled by the rapid expansion of high-speed rail infrastructure, CRSC saw revenues double in five years and profits triple. The company hoped to go public next year, Caixin learned.
"The July 23 accident was definitely a preventable accident due to human negligence that should not have occurred," the general engineer and spokesman of China's State Administration of Work Safety, Huang Yi told Xinhuanet.com, a news portal run by the official Xinhua News Agency on the same day of the chairman's death.

Issued Correction from Caixin:

编辑更正
2011年08月23日 18:38  本文来源于财新网 订阅《新世纪》 | 注册财新网
  财新网在8月23日刊登了通号集团董事长马骋突然去世一文。文章提到昨天(8月22日)上午,723事故检查组到中国铁路通信信号集团公司(下称通号集团)检查时,董事长马骋心脏病突发去世,此处有误。

  马聘是在深圳陪同国务院高速铁路安全大检查组检查广深港客专铁路时去世的。马骋为通号集团总经理、通号股份董事长。

  特此更正,并向死者家属、读者致歉!

  此文刊出后,在互联网上有很多转载,绝大部分未经财新网授权。请转载的网站协助更正。
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Old August 26th, 2011, 05:07 AM   #3064
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Sold-Out Beijing Shanghai Trains Show Riders Unfazed

Sold-Out Beijing Shanghai Trains Show Riders Unfazed


Link: Bloomberg
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...-by-crash.html




Quote:
Dong Hua, a sales executive from Zhejiang waiting in a ticket line at Beijing South station. The eight counters selling high-speed train tickets had lines of 20- 30 people each.

Dong has taken the bullet train to Shanghai at least four times since services started June 30 and said he prefers it over planes.



Nawrot, 24 was unfazed by the accident, saying he believes Chinese trains are safer ... ...


it抯 futuristic, he said as the digital speedometer on the wall showed 300 kph. 揟he shape of the train, the color, the surroundings, it抯 like a sci-fi movie.
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Old August 26th, 2011, 11:10 PM   #3065
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People who thought that China's HSR was over have been proven to be wrong. The HSR is reality and will continue to be so in China. An accident doesn't stop people from travelling, does people stop flying just because a airplane crash?

Actually I think that it's good that the train crash happened at this early stage of the development of the network because otherwise it would have happened sooner or later. It is a ringing bell for the authorities to put safety as top priority in the future just as with the SARS-epidemic was a ringing bell for the emergency and disease prevention.
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Old August 27th, 2011, 04:20 PM   #3066
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Given the tremendous demographic density of the coastal regions I wonder if they'll have to build double lines. You can expand airports without limits, but railways have a maximum capacity.
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Old August 27th, 2011, 04:58 PM   #3067
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They still can go up...

Why not double decker trains like in France?
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Old August 27th, 2011, 05:57 PM   #3068
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^ Wouldn't there be a lot of air resistance from such a tall train?
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Old August 27th, 2011, 07:05 PM   #3069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
^ Wouldn't there be a lot of air resistance from such a tall train?
Not if you streamline it properly


The world speed record for railed trains was done with a doubledecker
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Old August 27th, 2011, 07:17 PM   #3070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z0rg View Post
Given the tremendous demographic density of the coastal regions I wonder if they'll have to build double lines. You can expand airports without limits, but railways have a maximum capacity.
i dont think theyll double it, i think there are enough large cities in between the gaps to build lines 50-100 kms parallel to these lines

or maglev tubes
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Old August 28th, 2011, 07:01 AM   #3071
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luli Pop View Post
They still can go up...

Why not double decker trains like in France?
So far the only company that has experience with double deck high speed trains, is Alstom. Which company is practically not representative in the Chinese high speed market? Alstom (next to CRH5 which is a New Pendolino).

With modern signalling systems, it should be possible to run a HST every 3 minutes. That's 20 high speed trains an hour per track. So I think for the forseeable future, the demand for even more capacity than that will be non-existant.
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Old August 28th, 2011, 07:04 AM   #3072
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
So far the only company that has experience with double deck high speed trains, is Alstom. Which company is practically not representative in the Chinese high speed market? Alstom (next to CRH5 which is a New Pendolino).

With modern signalling systems, it should be possible to run a HST every 3 minutes. That's 20 high speed trains an hour per track. So I think for the forseeable future, the demand for even more capacity than that will be non-existant.
Japan has two bi-level (double decker) high speed trains running.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E1_Series_Shinkansen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E4_Series_Shinkansen
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Old August 28th, 2011, 07:33 AM   #3073
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It is interesting to compare the seating capacities of trains.

Alstom TGV Duplex (10 cars including 2 power cars): 545, other source says 512
CRH380A (8 cars): 494
CRH3C (8 cars): 556
CRH380AL (16 cars): 1066

Source: Wikipedia

Therefore double decker trains are hardly a viable solution because they give a rather low addition in passenger capacity. Existing capacity should be enough for a while. Perhaps adding an extra carriage could be a workable and more effective solution? Does anyone know what are the longest trains that could be accommodated by CRH stations? Currently the longest trains have 16 cars. What about, say 18 or 20 car long trains?
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Old August 28th, 2011, 08:22 AM   #3074
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
It is interesting to compare the seating capacities of trains.

Alstom TGV Duplex (10 cars including 2 power cars): 545, other source says 512
CRH380A (8 cars): 494
CRH3C (8 cars): 556
CRH380AL (16 cars): 1066

Source: Wikipedia
You're comparing apples with oranges since TGVs are connected with a Jacobs bogies making the cars inherently shorter that normal train cars.
The E4 series shikansen is a 8 cars arrangement with 817 seats although it has a larger loading gauge compared to European counterparts.
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Old August 28th, 2011, 09:12 AM   #3075
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
You're comparing apples with oranges since TGVs are connected with a Jacobs bogies making the cars inherently shorter that normal train cars.
The E4 series shikansen is a 8 cars arrangement with 817 seats although it has a larger loading gauge compared to European counterparts.
A 10 car TGV Duplex train is exactly 200m long, just like 8 car CRH380A (the latter one is 203m, the difference is so small that can be ignored). So it is a proper comparison.
However, trains in Europe usually have 2+2 seats in a row while Chinese ones have, AFAIK, 2+3 in second class. It makes about 20% difference.
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Old August 28th, 2011, 09:48 AM   #3076
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Using a simple calculation, not looking at 1st and 2nd class differences you can come up with the following numbers:

The TGV has 4 seats per row while the wider CHR has 5 seats (around 20% more capacity per meter). The TGV also has 2 power cars, reducing the capacity per meter by 20% in a 200m long train. This means that the 200m long single deck TGV should have about 40% less capacity then a 200m long CHR. In reality this difference is just 30%, this would suggest that a design with shorter cars and Jacobs bogies actually results in more capacity per meter.

Turning this in an actual simplified calculation, using a 60% capacity increase for double deck over single deck trains actually shows this:

CHR = 500 seats - 40% = 300
300 + 60% = 480 seats on the TGV Duplex.

This is very comparable with Pansori's numbers.


If you compare the Shinkansen E4 with the TGV Duplex you see that's the capacity difference is closer to the 40% then the difference between a single deck TGV with the CHR. And it should be noted that the E4 also has sections where there are 6 seats per row, this means that the difference should actually be bigger then 40%.

You have to keep in mind that a double decker EMU also has to house the traction and related equipment in the cars, and not under the cars like a single deck EMU. This means that space inside the train has to be used that could otherwise be used to seat passengers. The TGV doesn't have this problem since the equipment is all in the power cars.

A Double Deck CRH could be a solution to increase capacity, but it won't be as big as some might expect. Maybe if Alstom develops an AGV Duplex we will see a bigger capacity increase over the single deck train. Although it will still be with the small loading gauge. Making it bigger will add more weight, making it less viable to be used as a high speed train. We already have seen that Japan stopped the development of the double deck Shinkansen after the E4. Maybe in the future with a further development of light weight composite materials we could see new developments.
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Old August 28th, 2011, 11:56 AM   #3077
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
i dont think theyll double it, i think there are enough large cities in between the gaps to build lines 50-100 kms parallel to these lines
The old line Guangzhou-Shenzhen certainly was made four track. What about old Shanghai-Nanjing railway?

But parallel lines are good idea. The now Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway makes a detour through Nanjing, Xuzhou and Jinan.

Could it be a good idea to build a high speed railway Shanghai-Nantong-Lianyungang-Zibo-Beijing?
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Old August 28th, 2011, 12:08 PM   #3078
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
The old line Guangzhou-Shenzhen certainly was made four track. What about old Shanghai-Nanjing railway?

But parallel lines are good idea. The now Beijing-Shanghai high speed railway makes a detour through Nanjing, Xuzhou and Jinan.

Could it be a good idea to build a high speed railway Shanghai-Nantong-Lianyungang-Zibo-Beijing?
What would be a good idea is to standardise and simplify routes for a start. For example, Shanghai - Nanjing would look like this:

Commuter services and freight on classic line,
Major cities only on the ICL,
Long-distance lines with Shanghai - Nanjing non-stop on the HSL.

This way there is no speed differential and rogue stopping trains eating up train paths maximising line capacity utilisation. However, with all the intermediate stations built this is (politically) nigh-on impossible.
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Old August 28th, 2011, 03:11 PM   #3079
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
... ...

However, with all the intermediate stations built this is (politically) nigh-on impossible.

That sentence puzzled me.

Why is building intermediate stations impossible (politically)?

Could you please explain?
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Old August 28th, 2011, 04:22 PM   #3080
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dumbfword

Japan has two bi-level (double decker) high speed trains running.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E1_Series_Shinkansen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E4_Series_Shinkansen
Oops, you are right. I stand corrected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435
Maybe if Alstom develops an AGV Duplex we will see a bigger capacity increase over the single deck train.
There are rumours that Alstom is indeed developing a double deck version of the AGV. However, this is unconfirmed.
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