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Old April 9th, 2012, 12:24 AM   #3821
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Pansori: it seems to me you are comparing apples and oranges. The street you picked in London seems to be in a rather poor residential district, there as for China (which city?) you picked some cental business district people clearly do not live in.

And in addition what's the point of walking there - no shops, no street-side restaurants, nothing to do other than gape at distant skyscrapers.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 12:35 AM   #3822
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More space means access to amenities is more sparce. Total distance to bus stops clearly isn't the same when block sizes are far bigger and crossing points much further apart, and nowhere in China has yet the urban rail station density matching the City of London.

In the photos above, if I wanted to grab a quick bite to eat there would plenty of choice on the doorstep in photo A and I'd be pretty much fooked in photo B. In the City of London there are plenty of alleyways that are either pedestrianised or shared surface that are easily walkable. If you are constantly being squeezed or bumped into by people I think you need to improve on your walking skills. Some places might be cramped, but street to platform is easily doable in 5 minutes at Liverpool Street Station at the height of PM peak. Hongqiao station? No chance.
Smaller block sized don't mean better access to public transport. Again, look at Singapore. It has far better and far more efficient public transport than London 9or any other city in Europe for that matter) despite larger block sizes. Same applies to Chinese cities although development of public transport there is far from complete.

It could be that in in smaller blocks you will have a quicker access to a bus stop (not a metro stop though) but then bus will have to go slower and through more intersections, via busy mini-highstreets and so on. Not to mention the excessive maintenance costs of general infrastructure.
And I would not laugh at my walking skills. I suggest you try walking in the City of London for a couple of days and then judge for yourself. There simply is NO SPACE for pedestrians there and it makes pedestrian experience extremely uncomfortable, slow and inadequate (unless it's late night or weekend when offices are closed). It's one of those situations where you just want to get the hell out from there.

If you squeeze those big Chinese cities into those little streets you'll end up having a situation that was present there some years ago with overcrowded streets and inadequate infrastructure. Similar situation can be witnessed in Indian cities these days.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 12:37 AM   #3823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Pansori: it seems to me you are comparing apples and oranges. The street you picked in London seems to be in a rather poor residential district, there as for China (which city?) you picked some cental business district people clearly do not live in.

And in addition what's the point of walking there - no shops, no street-side restaurants, nothing to do other than gape at distant skyscrapers.
It does not make any difference. It's not about poor/rich neighborhood but about street layout. I can put an identical residential street from London and an identical residential street from Shenzhen similar to the pictures I posted. It's about how it looks like on the street level, not about rich/poor.

And the point of walking? Well, to get to your transport stop? For that you need some space, right? Especially if you prefer to walk fast as I do. It is never a problem to get your snack in Shenzhen. If you won't get that on the street in the picture you will get it a nearby shopping center, metro stop or some smaller shops near a metro station. It is never a problem to get food in China for Christs sake!
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Old April 9th, 2012, 12:52 AM   #3824
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Of course it's not a problem to get a food in China - nothing like that was implied anyway!

What I did mean to say is that on a standard European city center street (and traditional Asian as well!) most pedestrians are not there merely to get from point A to point B. They are there because there are other things to do as well (shops, food, entertainment etc). You can see if from your own picture - huge city, wide street and only 4 people walking. It looks more like in America to me.

Not that it's necessarily wrong, it just wouldn't have been my choice.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 01:00 AM   #3825
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Sorry to break it to you Pansori but Singapore neighbourhoods and CBDs are very permeable with a dense network of through capillaries. All you have to look at is whether you can walk through or wheter you have to walk round. The more areas that are closed off the fewer opportunities you have for commerce, that means less convenience and lower efficiency. It's absurd to have to walk through sets of double doors and walk up several storeys in a shopping centres just to get a sandwich or bun, and a lack of quality local street snack is a distinct problem in Chinese new districts. The only way you attract people onto public transport is by reducing excess walking distances and make doing other things possible when walking any distances.

I walk in the City and West End everyday now and I've never had any problems, and Londoners walk fast. Roads in the City probably are on the small side, but I don't see why anything needs to be any bigger than say Kingsway or Huaihao Road in Shanghai. With those widths you can easily implement bus priority without compromising walkability.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 02:35 AM   #3826
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Gee what a load of OT stuff here, get to the urban planning forum if you guys want to continue the discussion. The whole thing started with someone unable to read the HSR station plan carefully and realizing that the bus station is right next to the station. Whether you like its design or not don't drag urban planning issue here for Christ's sake.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 02:57 AM   #3827
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Population of London has been stagnant for like last 100 years. That is why London looks like what it is. Shanghai has doubled its population in last 15 years!

Adaptation of city design in London will be catastrophic for Chinese cities. There is simply too many people and too much growth.

London growth rate is zero compared to cities in China. That's why they keep "upgrading" city that they have. If London city developers are given job to design huge new business districts, infrastructure and residentials for incoming millions like cities in China receive annually, they would design similar places. However, they don't have that opportunity.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 04:21 AM   #3828
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China's railways carry 453m in Q1

A little bit of statistics (also cross-posted on CHINA | Railways forum).

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China's railways carry 453m in Q1
Updated: 2012-04-08 15:24
(Xinhua)

BEIJING - China's railways transported some 453.25 million passengers during the first quarter of the year, up 0.7 percent from a year earlier, official data showed Sunday.
And the railways delivered 998.61 million metric tons of goods during the January-March period, up 3.2 percent year-on-year, according to a report posted on the railways ministry's website.
To meet the demand of industrial production and the people's basic needs, the ministry has prioritized the delivery of major essential goods, according to the report.
In breakup, the country's railways transported 594.07 million tonnes of coal, 34.62 million tonnes of oil, 27.1 million tonnes of grain and 27.58 million tonnes of fertilizers and pesticides in the first three months.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2...t_14999772.htm
I wonder what would be the break-up between the conventional train services and the high speed train services on the corresponding lines. I mean how many passengers did the high speed trains "stole" from the "old" lines. Anyone has a link to the more detailed stats?
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Old April 9th, 2012, 04:38 AM   #3829
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Hong Kong and Tokyo are pretty cramped cities. They are still huge, so I don't see how size should be such a huge deal here. Just add more double decker busses and car lanes. Add a few motorway spaghetties, and more tunnels below ground. Perhaps it costs more, but it adds intimacy to a city, and intimacy is good.

However, to my experience people walk incredibly slow... A bit wider sidewalks is a good thing! But 100 meters from a highrise to the street it borders are a bit excessive. I think thats where Chinese cities are overdoing it. You can pretty much fit anotehr block in there. If only the old european city model met the "new" chinese model in the middle, it would be a good thing. Singapore and Shanghai is in fact something of a mix between the two.

With eating opportunities, I think most cities should look at Kuala Lumpur with its outdoor dining, or the singaporean kopitiam/koufu/food republic chains. If you place them at or near the subway stations like they do in Singapore, chances are people will find public transport more convenient.


PS: The moderators need to move all these posts into a new thread in the urban planning section.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 04:47 AM   #3830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdolniak View Post
A little bit of statistics (also cross-posted on CHINA | Railways forum).



I wonder what would be the break-up between the conventional train services and the high speed train services on the corresponding lines. I mean how many passengers did the high speed trains "stole" from the "old" lines. Anyone has a link to the more detailed stats?
To me it is more interresting that the percentage of passenger growth is so low with the increased wealth. It reminds me of that high income news anchor in Beijing who said she felt richer 10, or was it 20 years ago. The problem being that China doesn't have any welfare system in place. No pension funds etc etc, so people has to save their money. If we want to see growth, as I assume the MOR does, a welfare system needs to be in place.

The growth of 0.3% might just all be from the increasing number of tourists to China.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 09:02 AM   #3831
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I am a devout pedestrian and picture B (from Shenzhen I gather) is very picture of the pedestrian's nightmare. Huge distances through nowhere with a very boring view. Believe me, if you are a pedestrian you have seen manicured grass many times before. Nothing in the walk interacts with you, only a boring building (for a pedestrian, possibly better if you zipped by in a car). And first and foremost: No shade. If you were waking there without an umbrella in the heat of Shenzhen you would collapse of heat stroke long before you reached that bridge ahead. The whole street front is designed by someone only travelling in a car. like some of the worst streets here in Beijing.

Picture A is kind of dreary, but I have only one word for picture B: Taxi!

Going back on topic Chinese stations have to contend with more people than probably any place outside India. That notwithstanding, they are designed to look good from a distance more than quickly and efficiently moving passengers from where they are to where they want to be.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 09:23 AM   #3832
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The discussions so far were about 2 high speed railway stations. The plan of Hangzhou South station due for completion in 2014, and existing Hongqiao Station.

China has more major high speed railway stations, though, and needs more minor high speed railway stations as well.

Regarding Shenzhen:
Longhua Station is in service since December 2011, and since 1st instant is connected to Wuhan.

How is Longhua Station for someone approaching as a pedestrian? For bicycles? And what about metro approach? Any pictures with comments as to personal experience?

Futian Station is now under construction. In which year are Futian Station and Longhua-Futian high speed railway currently due to open?

What does the block over the Futian Station now look like, and how approachable is it on foot? Are there any other works in progress besides Pingan Tower?
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Old April 9th, 2012, 05:56 PM   #3833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack
Hardly.

China has an abundance of cities which are 0,5-2 million. China needs solutions for those cities, too.
Exactly...and only a FEW cities in China are above 10 million anyways (Shanghai, Beijing, Chongqing, Shenzhen[?], etc)
The problem, despite what anyone will argue, is that China is experiencing the EXACT same phenomenon that doomed many [Western] Cities in the US: the automobile.*

I mean, have you even taken the time to look at Beijing? Motor City.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 07:15 PM   #3834
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Exactly...and only a FEW cities in China are above 10 million anyways (Shanghai, Beijing, Chongqing, Shenzhen[?], etc)
The problem, despite what anyone will argue, is that China is experiencing the EXACT same phenomenon that doomed many [Western] Cities in the US: the automobile.*

I mean, have you even taken the time to look at Beijing? Motor City.
It is rather shocking that someone is comparing Chinese cities to the US as being 'doomed' for automobile dominance. Aren't the Chinese cities ones building public transport infrastructure at an unprecedented scale? The whole urban fabric (suburban huts in America vs. highrise blocks in China) makes such arguments look silly. I mean come on... I understand if we compare Chinese cities to some European cities (in particular Eastern European ones built with some grand planning ideas of concrete and wide avenues) but America? Are you for real?
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Old April 9th, 2012, 07:19 PM   #3835
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Car ownership in even the most auto-oriented cities in China aren't even close to that in European cities. With the unprecedented growth of transit systems and rail infrastructure there is little incentive for Chinese cities to become nearly as car oriented as anywhere in the West.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 07:34 PM   #3836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
It is rather shocking that someone is comparing Chinese cities to the US as being 'doomed' for automobile dominance. Aren't the Chinese cities ones building public transport infrastructure at an unprecedented scale? The whole urban fabric (suburban huts in America vs. highrise blocks in China) makes such arguments look silly. I mean come on... I understand if we compare Chinese cities to some European cities (in particular Eastern European ones built with some grand planning ideas of concrete and wide avenues) but America? Are you for real?
Don't be so quick to dismiss the idea. Chinese cities are doing much better job than American ones (except the old East coast ones) in building public transport infrastructure, but ignoring that the urban landscapes of central districts indeed resemble America much more than Europe. Residential areas perhaps the other way around (not even sure how those look in China today).

I doubt it would be possible to be as auto dominated as LA or Atlanta, though.

By the way I was born in Eastern Europe and the areas outside city centers tend to be quite car dominated high rise blocks or no. Of course it has to do also with rather poor by European standards public transport options...
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Old April 9th, 2012, 07:36 PM   #3837
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Originally Posted by staff View Post
Car ownership in even the most auto-oriented cities in China aren't even close to that in European cities. With the unprecedented growth of transit systems and rail infrastructure there is little incentive for Chinese cities to become nearly as car oriented as anywhere in the West.
Becoming car oriented is a default option if you do nothing to avoid it. No special incentive needed...
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Old April 9th, 2012, 09:01 PM   #3838
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Exactly...and only a FEW cities in China are above 10 million anyways (Shanghai, Beijing, Chongqing, Shenzhen[?], etc)
Shenzhen, yes. Excluding Daping District (population density slightly over 600 per square km) Shenzhen still has, as of 2010 census, over 10,1 million residents. Over less than 1700 square km - average 6000 per square km. Each of the 9 remaining districts has over 1800 per square km (Pingshan). It can be fairly described as a city. And one city.

And note Dongguan across the border. Unfortunately I do not know population distribution within Dongguan. But the population is over 8,2 millions on 2465 square km. I have a strong suspicion that much of Dongguan is contiguous with Shenzhen as well.

Chongqing, well...

Yes, Chongqing is the most populous city in the world. Nearly 33 million citizens. Over 28 million residents.

But the area of Chongqing is 82 400 square km.

The area of the whole Benelux is smaller, at 76 600 square km. And Benelux also has over 28 million residents combined.

Benelux is not a city and does not contain a city of 10 million residents. I have strong suspicions as to whether Chongqing contains a city of 10 million, or indeed even 5 million.

Quote:
Becoming car oriented is a default option if you do nothing to avoid it.
Buying cars and driving them once bought is private decision.

Building streets and motorways takes government action. If the governments by default allow existing roads to get congested and dilapidated, that would keep up public transport demand.

Japan was getting rich in 1950s, 1960s. Japanese were buying private cars. How well were the governments of Japan then developing public transport?

What were the governments of Taiwan and South Korea doing in 1980s when their people were getting rich and buying private cars?

What is China now doing, and how does this compare to what Japan, South Korea and Taiwan did?
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Old April 9th, 2012, 11:37 PM   #3839
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post

What is China now doing, and how does this compare to what Japan, South Korea and Taiwan did?

It's worth considering that china is a VAST country and the private car allows many rural folk the ability to travel outside of their areas which would be impossible with public transport as it simply can not reach every village and hamlet
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Old April 10th, 2012, 12:47 AM   #3840
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Chongqing, well...

Yes, Chongqing is the most populous city in the world. Nearly 33 million citizens. Over 28 million residents.

But the area of Chongqing is 82 400 square km.

The area of the whole Benelux is smaller, at 76 600 square km. And Benelux also has over 28 million residents combined.

Benelux is not a city and does not contain a city of 10 million residents. I have strong suspicions as to whether Chongqing contains a city of 10 million, or indeed even 5 million.
http://www.geohive.com/cntry/cn-50.aspx

Yuzhong District 630,100
Dadukou District 301,000
Jiangbei District 738,000
Shapingba District 1,000,000
Jiulongpo District 1,084,400
Nan'an District 759,600
Beibei District 680,400

Pluss roughly 1.5 million from Ba'nan and Yubei district.

You end up with about 6.7 million. But the numbers seems like estimates, and I highly doubt that this number counts all the migrant workers.

Then again, I don't really know where to draw the border in Chongqing.

Last edited by Bannor; April 10th, 2012 at 12:52 AM.
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