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Old June 26th, 2012, 01:51 PM   #4121
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Anyone has any updates about Kunming to Vientiane Line? My google search result, this line is suspended
Kunming to Vientiane is on ice until the Thaiís agree to Bangkok Ė Vientiane. The Thaiís have currently delayed approving this project due to the government being pre-occupied with the clean up from the floods and also domestic political infighting.

On the plus side though the Thaiís have recently approved the building of a high speed ~200kmph link from Bangkok to Chang Mi which is likely to have significant Chinese investment and technical assistance. The thaiís are also still planning the Nong Khai link which would meet up eventually with Vientiane.

Itís likely that this link is not moving anywhere fast as politically as it is seen as benefiting Thaksin Shinawatra Ė who is not currently in power....

That said there is significant bi-partisan support for the Bangkok Ė Vientiane Ė Kunming link in Thailand and with Thailand so politically divided that is saying something.

So, wait to hear for Thia news...and from that you will hear Laos news....basically Laos is ready to go.. just waiting for the green light [or red-shirt ok] for Thailand.


First post...please be nice
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Old June 27th, 2012, 04:31 AM   #4122
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How about the vice premier in charge of energy, telecommunications and transportation - since 2008 already, Zhang Dejiang, who already was the boss of Liu Zhijun. What has his attitude been to replacement of Liu Zhijun and to slowdown campaigns (and speedups in Liu Zhijunīs time)?

Zhang Dejiang has since March been replacing Bo Xilai in Chongqing. How does he manage to be Vice Premier while away?

Should China get a new Vice Premier in charge of energy, telecommunications and transportations on grounds that the old one is busy elsewhere?
Zhang's Chongqing post is temporary and in name only, the day to day operation of the city is still being handled by Huang Qifan.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 08:51 PM   #4123
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My question was, are there any trains operating at 250 km/h in China.

I am asking this question because websites say that the operating speed for Beijing-Shanghai is 250km/h or 300 km/h, but some websites say that all trains that were operating at 250km/h has been lowered to 200 km/h.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 09:27 PM   #4124
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My question was, are there any trains operating at 250 km/h in China.

I am asking this question because websites say that the operating speed for Beijing-Shanghai is 250km/h or 300 km/h, but some websites say that all trains that were operating at 250km/h has been lowered to 200 km/h.
All trains now operating at 250 km/h are on railways which were designed for 350 km/h or more and which still have trains operating at 300 km/h.

All railways which were operating at 250 km/h (since 2007 already) were slowed down to 200 km/h.
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Old June 28th, 2012, 09:22 AM   #4125
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All trains now operating at 250 km/h are on railways which were designed for 350 km/h or more and which still have trains operating at 300 km/h.

All railways which were operating at 250 km/h (since 2007 already) were slowed down to 200 km/h.
Not entirely true.

The Xi'an-Zhenzhou line travels at 140km/h in the slower tunnels up to 291km/h on the flats.

The Wuhan-Guangzhou line was slowed to 304 km/h but more recently is up to 317 km/h in places.

I believe they are seeking a 'sweet spot' where costs and maintenance wear are optimum for passenger load and travel times.

This varies from PDL to PDL.

They could run a train at 420 or 480 km/h but it would have to be the last of the day, few stops and the wear would be unacceptable.

If you wish to travel faster than 480 km/h, perhaps one should fly?

Who knows what these PDL's will be rated at in the future. If they could upgrade D-lines from 120 to 200 km/h, then the 350/380 km/h lines can be uprated in the future also.
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Old June 28th, 2012, 09:46 AM   #4126
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Are high speed trains really that fragile? I was surprised at how much inspection was needed after a couple runs. I'm no expert on trains so I'm not sure how much wear and tear a couple of high speed runs affect a train.
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Old June 28th, 2012, 11:08 AM   #4127
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A train is only as strong as it weakest parts.

With the steel wheels on the steel track it creates huge forces that grow exponentially with increasing speeds onto those parts. Little hair-cracks can expand in no time resulting in the failure of key parts of a train, like a wheel crack that was the cause of the ICE crash in Germany.

The problem with China was that the technology is there to go faster then before, going 350 km/h where most HSL network only had a operating speed of 300 ~ 330 km/h. But since the other network all started slower and progressively raised the speed in smaller steps they also have the knowledge on how a speed up of the trains would affect the operation costs and maintenance. China started with the maximum speed since it was possible, but soon after realized that it was a bit too much to handle straight out of the starting blocks without the years of experience that the other countries already have.
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Old June 28th, 2012, 06:07 PM   #4128
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The Wuhan-Guangzhou line was slowed to 304 km/h but more recently is up to 317 km/h in places.
Interesting, because I know that Guangzhou Railway Corp's maintenance section is extremely strict on speed limits, as of a few months ago anyone driver who's IC card recorded a speed over 310km/h will get a fine. The maintenance on those trains are intense, even a little increase in operating speed will result in more frequent parts change or refurbishment.

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The problem with China was that the technology is there to go faster then before, going 350 km/h where most HSL network only had a operating speed of 300 ~ 330 km/h. But since the other network all started slower and progressively raised the speed in smaller steps they also have the knowledge on how a speed up of the trains would affect the operation costs and maintenance. China started with the maximum speed since it was possible, but soon after realized that it was a bit too much to handle straight out of the starting blocks without the years of experience that the other countries already have.
Well it's not like China went to 350km/h from conventional railway overnight. China has invested in HSR technology since the early 1990s, and numerous designs were tested or put into limited operation for close to 10 years before the CRH system became operational. Even after that it took another two years for CRH to get to 350km/h from 250km/h. The line went straight to 350km/h because it's the first dedicated 350km/h rated new line built, other countries, such as France's Lyon-Marseilles section, are upgraded lines that's why it didn't go 320km/h from the get go. Also note Wuhan-Guangzhou was operated at 350km/h safely for two years before the speed reduction, which I believe is entirely due to political and economic reasons, not technical. The line was tested at close to 400km/h with the former minister of railway in the driver's cabin, they wouldn't do it if they don't have absolute confidence in the system.
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Old June 28th, 2012, 07:53 PM   #4129
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China did not have the same level of experience of running commercial high speed trains as Japan, France & Germany. 2 years of CHR operation is not the same as running a high speed network on dedicated high speed lines since 1964 (Japan) or 1981 (TGV).

The failure of the initial Chinese developments led to the buying spree of foreign technology, and that made it possible to have 350 km/h trains. But the experience in running a reliable network can't be bought from overseas. And I see that you can also blame the higher Chinese politicians who of course don't have any experience on running trains for wanting to have the best and the biggest in zero time. It's absolutely no surprise that all the speeds have been reduced to more reasonable levels.

It's still rather amazing that they can keep up a 300 km/h network right now, I have to give the people working on the railways that. But they had to learn it the hard way by figuring out the reasons behind the initial poor service and the terrible accident last year. Hopefully they continue gaining that experience with safety and reliability as the #1 priorities.
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Old June 28th, 2012, 07:59 PM   #4130
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Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Interesting, because I know that Guangzhou Railway Corp's maintenance section is extremely strict on speed limits, as of a few months ago anyone driver who's IC card recorded a speed over 310km/h will get a fine. The maintenance on those trains are intense, even a little increase in operating speed will result in more frequent parts change or refurbishment.
That was from a trip back in Feb.

The 304 km/hr trip was from December and I noticed the slower speed from the prior year when it was 347 to 352 km/h.
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Old June 28th, 2012, 08:03 PM   #4131
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Are high speed trains really that fragile? I was surprised at how much inspection was needed after a couple runs. I'm no expert on trains so I'm not sure how much wear and tear a couple of high speed runs affect a train.
Drag increases as a square of the velocity, and the power/energy required increases as a CUBE of velocity.

So, yes. You increase the v and you wear things out faster and suck up more juice, especially as one gets closer to the design limits.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 12:49 AM   #4132
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Seems like everyone is talking about the rated 350 km/h trains. I was just saying that the rated 250 km/h trains were technology that can travel up to 250 km/h in other countries, and China has been running them smoothy for quite a while. Why did China decide to show these trains down?

P.S. I can fully understand why they slowed the 350 km/h trains down to 300 km/h but I think 320 km/h will be a more reasonable medium.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 02:30 AM   #4133
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Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
China did not have the same level of experience of running commercial high speed trains as Japan, France & Germany. 2 years of CHR operation is not the same as running a high speed network on dedicated high speed lines since 1964 (Japan) or 1981 (TGV).

The failure of the initial Chinese developments led to the buying spree of foreign technology, and that made it possible to have 350 km/h trains. But the experience in running a reliable network can't be bought from overseas. And I see that you can also blame the higher Chinese politicians who of course don't have any experience on running trains for wanting to have the best and the biggest in zero time. It's absolutely no surprise that all the speeds have been reduced to more reasonable levels.

It's still rather amazing that they can keep up a 300 km/h network right now, I have to give the people working on the railways that. But they had to learn it the hard way by figuring out the reasons behind the initial poor service and the terrible accident last year. Hopefully they continue gaining that experience with safety and reliability as the #1 priorities.
It's true that China is far behind the HSR pioneers such as Japan and France in terms of experience in operating HSR, however the technologies available for China today are the product of accumulation of the aforementioned experience. Just like China's space program, they don't have to reinvent the wheel if it's already been done by others, lessons have been learned, and improvements made. China did build the largest and most advanced HSR network in the world in the shortest amount of time, and are operating relatively smoothly for five years now, that feat itself is a testimony of CRH employees' competency. You are surprised that they are able to keep up 300km/h because most outsiders constantly underestimate the Chinese people, and in this case they clearly have learned very fast on how to run a vast HSR network. And just like you said, they are gaining experience every day, and the CRH network is getting safer and more reliable every passing day. It's sad that there was the July 2011 accident which claimed many lives, but note that accident has absolutely nothing to do with speed since it happened when the train is traveling at 99km/h. The speed reduction also has nothing to do with the accident because it was announced before 7.23, and like I've said it's a pure political and economical move.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 02:34 AM   #4134
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Originally Posted by kw0943 View Post
Seems like everyone is talking about the rated 350 km/h trains. I was just saying that the rated 250 km/h trains were technology that can travel up to 250 km/h in other countries, and China has been running them smoothy for quite a while. Why did China decide to show these trains down?
Product differentiation (from 300km/h G trains), reduced maintenance and electricity cost translate to reduced ticket prices to attract lower income passengers, it also allows those upgraded conventional lines to accommodate more freight traffic (higher revenue for the MOR).
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Old June 29th, 2012, 03:36 AM   #4135
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Product differentiation (from 300km/h G trains), reduced maintenance and electricity cost translate to reduced ticket prices to attract lower income passengers, it also allows those upgraded conventional lines to accommodate more freight traffic (higher revenue for the MOR).
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So you say that the currently 200 km/h trains will return to 250 km/h once the currently 300 km/h trains is raised to 350 km/h, which rumors say will happen

****frustrated with China for injuring such an impressive High speed rail network.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 04:00 AM   #4136
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Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Interesting, because I know that Guangzhou Railway Corp's maintenance section is extremely strict on speed limits, as of a few months ago anyone driver who's IC card recorded a speed over 310km/h will get a fine. The maintenance on those trains are intense, even a little increase in operating speed will result in more frequent parts change or refurbishment.


Well it's not like China went to 350km/h from conventional railway overnight. China has invested in HSR technology since the early 1990s, and numerous designs were tested or put into limited operation for close to 10 years before the CRH system became operational. Even after that it took another two years for CRH to get to 350km/h from 250km/h. The line went straight to 350km/h because it's the first dedicated 350km/h rated new line built, other countries, such as

1-
France's Lyon-Marseilles section, are upgraded lines that's why it didn't go 320km/h from the get go
. .
The Paris Lyon and the Lyon- Marseille sections were built as LGVs and were entirely new lines.


http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Sud-Est

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_M%C3%A9diterran%C3%A9e
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Old June 29th, 2012, 04:05 AM   #4137
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So you say that the currently 200 km/h trains will return to 250 km/h once the currently 300 km/h trains is raised to 350 km/h, which rumors say will happen

****frustrated with China for injuring such an impressive High speed rail network.
China is not 'injuring' their network.

The slowdown is in fact saving the network from injury as experience is gained in maintaining and running the network.

He is also NOT saying that 'the currently 200 km/h trains will return to 250 km/h once the currently 300 km/h trains is raised to 350 km/h'. He is saying that the difference in two speeds is to attract lower paying riders, and that lowering existing speeds is to attract more riders, also.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 04:15 AM   #4138
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Speed of high speed trains is mostly depends on politics. There is a fierce competition in China between airline and rail lobbies. One part is developing ARJ-21, C919, building countless airports; other part is building this colossal high speed network. Some friction has to occur.

Once the whole network is complete and some more experience gained, there will be the reversal of the speed decrease. That's what I think... I even think we will see more than 350km/h on longer routes. Also even with 300km/h, when you look at the average speed, the network is still the fastest.

Last edited by foxmulder; June 29th, 2012 at 05:40 AM.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 05:37 AM   #4139
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China did not have the same level of experience of running commercial high speed trains as Japan, France & Germany. 2 years of CHR operation is not the same as running a high speed network on dedicated high speed lines since 1964 (Japan) or 1981 (TGV).
By the same token, I should be cautious when I ride on Spain's AVE, Korea's KTX and many others then because they don't have decades of experience.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 06:13 AM   #4140
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China did build the largest and most advanced HSR network in the world in the shortest amount of time, and are operating relatively smoothly for five years now, that feat itself is a testimony of CRH employees' competency.
Just curious what is your criteria for being the most advanced?
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