daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 12th, 2012, 09:58 AM   #4381
gdolniak
Mememe...
 
gdolniak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 190
Likes (Received): 29

Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Nice video of the trip.

If you do not travel nor live in China, these times do not mean much.

The CRH is top tier, world class or just below it. Average speed is 250 to 325 kph for a 300 to 380 kph rated line. Thus the trip from Guangzhou to Shenzhen is 28 minutes by CRH but 3 or 4 hours in massive traffic by bus.

[...]
This is a train between Shenzhen North Station and Guangzhou South Station. From Shenzhen North Station is about 20-30 minute subway ride to Futian Business District. Similarly, from Guangzhou South Station is 45 minute subway ride to the CBD in Tianhe. Both of the stations are on the literal outskirts of the town.

There is an "old" CRH-1 line from Tianhe (Guangzhou East Station) to Luohu (Shenzhen Station) and now it takes about 1:20 to complete the course. It is much slower than before, 1:05 minutes, a couple of years ago. If you are going from CBD Tianhe in Guangzhou to Shenzhen North Station, it is still faster to take the "old" CRH-1 train.

I haven't seen it on this forum yet, but there is a new CRH-1 station being build at Dongguan Shilong (石龙) as well as in Shenzhen Buji (布吉). The Shilong station will be also served by the new Dongguan metro. For Buji, I'm not sure if the CRH-1 trains will stop there (they do not now). Does anyone have any information about it?
gdolniak no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 12th, 2012, 10:24 AM   #4382
Silver Swordsman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 371
Likes (Received): 101

Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Nice video of the trip.

If you do not travel nor live in China, these times do not mean much.

The CRH is top tier, world class or just below it. Average speed is 250 to 325 kph for a 300 to 380 kph rated line. Thus the trip from Guangzhou to Shenzhen is 28 minutes by CRH but 3 or 4 hours in massive traffic by bus.

The bottom rung consists of all the local buses that run between all Chinese towns, villages and cities that average 40 to 45 kph.

This was the fastest way to travel in China until 2005 or so and it's what happens once you take a CRH to a mid point station, alight and then travel locally. It is thus entirely possible that the last leg of your journey by bus will take longer than the CRH trip from 500 or 1000 km away and you will take a beng beng truck from the CRH station.

The CRH, for those who can afford it, will save people DAYS, literally DAYS, of travel time in country. Trips that were 18 hours to 72 hours, will become 6 hours.

The ability to get on at Wuhan and be in Hong Kong in 5 hours, when the trip took 18 to 36 hours just a few years ago, cannot be lauded enough.

China is a nation where CRH makes the most sense with the most benefits.
Would you kindly point out, with this statement in mind, how high speed rail in the US wouldn't make sense? :P
__________________
My Virtual-Model Railroad: High Speed Rail in RCT3
Project Anniversary: Click Here
Silver Swordsman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2012, 10:38 AM   #4383
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,978
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post

The CRH is top tier, world class or just below it. Average speed is 250 to 325 kph for a 300 to 380 kph rated line. Thus the trip from Guangzhou to Shenzhen is 28 minutes by CRH but 3 or 4 hours in massive traffic by bus.

The bottom rung consists of all the local buses that run between all Chinese towns, villages and cities that average 40 to 45 kph.

This was the fastest way to travel in China until 2005 or so and it's what happens once you take a CRH to a mid point station, alight and then travel locally. It is thus entirely possible that the last leg of your journey by bus will take longer than the CRH trip from 500 or 1000 km away and you will take a beng beng truck from the CRH station.
Would you prefer to travel on high-speed rail average speed 250 to 325 km/h to a big city and then spend hours on a local bus at 40...45 km/h - or could it be better to travel on a medium speed train (average speed 100...150 kph, top speed 160...250 kph) to a town near your destination and then take the 40...45 kph local bus to your destination?

Also, trams and buses commonly travel 15...20 kph average.
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2012, 12:22 PM   #4384
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,944
Likes (Received): 18209

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdolniak View Post
T
I haven't seen it on this forum yet, but there is a new CRH-1 station being build at Dongguan Shilong (石龙) as well as in Shenzhen Buji (布吉). The Shilong station will be also served by the new Dongguan metro. For Buji, I'm not sure if the CRH-1 trains will stop there (they do not now). Does anyone have any information about it?
I thought there is already a Shilong station along the Guangzhou East - Shenzhen (Luohu) CRH line? Are you talking about a new station with the same name?
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2012, 01:23 PM   #4385
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,978
Likes (Received): 388

Guangzhou stations

Does Guangzhou need a new, better connected high speed railway station?

Guangzhou now has 2 - South and North.

Guangzhou South is in a remote Shibi subdistrict in Panyu district. It is connected to Guangzhou Metro line 2, but not to any low speed railways.

Guangzhou North is in remote Huadu district. It is connected to Beijing-Guangzhou low speed railway, but not to any metro line.

The distance between Guangzhou North and Guangzhou South is 46 km.

For comparison, the 102 km high speed railway Guangzhou South-Shenzhen North has 3 intermediate stations: Dongchong, Humen and Guangming.
So 4 stretches, 25,5 km average.

Therefore, it would not be excessive to build an additional station on Guangzhou-Wuhan high speed railway somewhere between Guangzhou South and Guangzhou North.

Could someone show a map of western Guangzhou, depicting Guangzhou North and Guangzhou South stations, the high speed railway between them, and other low speed railways intersecting the high speed railway between these points?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2012, 03:08 PM   #4386
gdolniak
Mememe...
 
gdolniak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 190
Likes (Received): 29

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
I thought there is already a Shilong station along the Guangzhou East - Shenzhen (Luohu) CRH line? Are you talking about a new station with the same name?
Seems that the existing Shilong station (conventional train and CRH) will be moved towards Dongguan. You can already view the construction site on Google Maps (satellite view). The conventional station was already rebuild a couple of years ago during the construction of the fourth track on the Guangshen line.
gdolniak no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2012, 04:02 PM   #4387
gdolniak
Mememe...
 
gdolniak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 190
Likes (Received): 29

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Does Guangzhou need a new, better connected high speed railway station?

Guangzhou now has 2 - South and North.

Guangzhou South is in a remote Shibi subdistrict in Panyu district. It is connected to Guangzhou Metro line 2, but not to any low speed railways.

Guangzhou North is in remote Huadu district. It is connected to Beijing-Guangzhou low speed railway, but not to any metro line.

The distance between Guangzhou North and Guangzhou South is 46 km.

For comparison, the 102 km high speed railway Guangzhou South-Shenzhen North has 3 intermediate stations: Dongchong, Humen and Guangming.
So 4 stretches, 25,5 km average.

Therefore, it would not be excessive to build an additional station on Guangzhou-Wuhan high speed railway somewhere between Guangzhou South and Guangzhou North.

Could someone show a map of western Guangzhou, depicting Guangzhou North and Guangzhou South stations, the high speed railway between them, and other low speed railways intersecting the high speed railway between these points?
Another question would be: with such massive financial investment such as building the Beijing - Guangzhou High Speed Rwy and the whole brand new infrastructure, for whos convenience it was decided to place the Guangzhou North Rwy Station in Huadu, instead of moving it 10km east at the Baiyun International Airport? See Google Maps for that.
gdolniak no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2012, 08:39 PM   #4388
China Hand
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 705
Likes (Received): 161

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Swordsman View Post
Would you kindly point out, with this statement in mind, how high speed rail in the US wouldn't make sense?
Clearly you will not re-read my posts and are attempting to goad.

In short:

China
-2nd most concentrated population density on earth
-Trillions in savings
-Concentration of hundreds of large cities in the eastern third of the nation
-No old infrastructure sunk cost
-Few autos, no auto culture

North America I would rather drive, China I would rather take the train.

I have already described over many posts in great detail the time and costs involved and how each mode is better for the respective location.

They are two different places with two different, separate and distinct transportation needs.

Last edited by China Hand; September 12th, 2012 at 08:51 PM.
China Hand no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2012, 09:05 PM   #4389
China Hand
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 705
Likes (Received): 161

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Would you prefer to travel on high-speed rail average speed 250 to 325 km/h to a big city and then spend hours on a local bus at 40...45 km/h - or could it be better to travel on a medium speed train (average speed 100...150 kph, top speed 160...250 kph) to a town near your destination and then take the 40...45 kph local bus to your destination?

Also, trams and buses commonly travel 15...20 kph average.
Local buses where I live travel at 40 to 45 kph on average. I have measured and timed them, did one yesterday, an in-county trip of 57km, about 1h25m [40kph], that was a faster trip. Same trip has taken as long as 1h55m [30kph] on a crowded Saturday afternoon.

Medium trip buses are 92kph, sleeper buses are the same speed as NNNN and KNNN trains at about 75kph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Would you prefer to travel on high-speed rail average speed 250 to 325 km/h to a big city and then spend hours on a local bus at 40...45 km/h - or could it be better to travel on a medium speed train (average speed 100...150 kph, top speed 160...250 kph) to a town near your destination and then take the 40...45 kph local bus to your destination?
This is a simple algebraic word problem that I am sure you can solve yourself.

My concerns are time and comfort. If I must be going long distances, then the leg room in a train is much preferred to being stuffed into an airplane.

The cost of laying so much rail in North America would be astronomical to get a medium speed train close to where everyone wishes to go, and merely 'costly' for China to do the same.

With the currently envisioned CRH network, assuming it is all built out to ~ca2016 as planned to that date and excluding longer time framed lines and future expansion, China's CRH will be adequate to get one about the nation with efficiency.

It may take up to 2 or 3 hours to reach said station using the 40kph local buses, but once in the system one can move about rapidly. As I read the CRH map, most of Eastern China will be within 3 hours of a CRH station within a few years.

If in a hurry one can always take a taxi, hire a private auto, or jitney with a friend.

...and the time to/from airports is comparable...
China Hand no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2012, 03:56 AM   #4390
Silly_Walks
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,978
Likes (Received): 836

Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Clearly you will not re-read my posts and are attempting to goad.

In short:

China
-2nd most concentrated population density on earth
-
Not even close:

Ten most densely populated countries

With population above 1 million
Rank Country/Region Population Area (km2) Density
(Pop. per km2)
1 Singapore 5,183,700 710 7301
2 Bahrain 1,234,596 750 1646
3 Bangladesh 152,518,015 147,570 1034
4 Taiwan (R.O.C) 22,955,395 36,190 634
5 Mauritius 1,288,000 2,040 631
6 South Korea 48,456,369 99,538 487
7 Rwanda 10,718,379 26,338 407
8 England 53,013,000 130,440 406
9 Netherlands 16,760,000 41,526 404
10 Lebanon 4,224,000 10,452 404



China has lots of inhabitants, but it is also immense geographically.


There are big areas with a very high population density, but the same goes for the US.
Silly_Walks no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2012, 06:28 AM   #4391
foxmulder
Registered User
 
foxmulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,135
Likes (Received): 382

I even don't get what you guys are trying to discuss, please solve your problem in pms
foxmulder no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2012, 09:49 AM   #4392
Silver Swordsman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 371
Likes (Received): 101

Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Clearly you will not re-read my posts and are attempting to goad.
Actually, I read over your posts in great detail in the US HSR thread and spent hours refuting your claims; you've never bothered to answer. I was wondering why you were against rail in the US while for it in China when both countries had similar population densities.

Why don't we engage in a hearty discussion there?



Linky:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=3351
__________________
My Virtual-Model Railroad: High Speed Rail in RCT3
Project Anniversary: Click Here
Silver Swordsman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2012, 05:45 PM   #4393
FM 2258
Registered User
 
FM 2258's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Austin
Posts: 5,438
Likes (Received): 612

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaricManchurian View Post
The main BJ-SH line contains Tianjin South station and there is also a branch line that goes to Tianjin West station. The BJ-TJ intercity HSR is a separate line that goes to Tianjin station.
In the video posted recently from Beijing South to Shanghai Hongqiao I cannot see where the Beijing-Tianjin Intercity line branches off from the long distance line. Do they leave Beijing in the same direction?

Beijing Shanghai:

Beijing-Tianjin:






Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
They are separate lines, largely parallel.
I noticed the same thing with the Shanghai-Nanjing Intercity Rail. The planners really thought of everything. I thought they were just calling a short section of long distance lines "Intercity Rail" when in fact there is a dedicated line for intercity rail.

Anyway. I love this video below along the Shanghai-Nanjing High Speed line. You can see the old railway next to it. I find it interesting and nice that the slower rail line is also in use for passenger rail.

FM 2258 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2012, 06:03 PM   #4394
yaohua2000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 453
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
In the video posted recently from Beijing South to Shanghai Hongqiao I cannot see where the Beijing-Tianjin Intercity line branches off from the long distance line. Do they leave Beijing in the same direction?
Beijing-Tianjin leaving Beijing South and heading to the east.

Beijing-Shanghai train leaving Beijing South and heading to the west.

They "branch off" from Beijing South Station.
yaohua2000 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2012, 07:28 PM   #4395
FM 2258
Registered User
 
FM 2258's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Austin
Posts: 5,438
Likes (Received): 612

Quote:
Originally Posted by yaohua2000 View Post
Beijing-Tianjin leaving Beijing South and heading to the east.

Beijing-Shanghai train leaving Beijing South and heading to the west.

They "branch off" from Beijing South Station.
That's funny, I wonder why the Beijing-Shanghai would head west starting out. It must loop back somehow to head south-east. Maybe that's why the train goes so slow for the first few minutes before it speeds up in the video. Still kinda confused but I'm trying to map it in my head. Too bad we don't have a map showing the individual high speed rail lines. If Google maps were updated for the CRH lines that would be perfect.
FM 2258 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2012, 09:45 PM   #4396
China Hand
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 705
Likes (Received): 161

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Swordsman View Post
Actually, I read over your posts in great detail in the US HSR thread and spent hours refuting your claims; you've never bothered to answer. I was wondering why you were against rail in the US while for it in China when both countries had similar population densities.
They don't have similar population densities and I am tired of your obfuscation, manipulation and misrepresentation of facts, dissemblement and other misleading techniques. Where the Chinese live, the eastern third of the country with 1,000bn, is far far more densely populated than the USA and to claim otherwise borders on intellectual dishonesty.

This is going to PM.
China Hand no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2012, 09:50 PM   #4397
China Hand
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 705
Likes (Received): 161

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Wrote
-2nd most concentrated population density on earth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks Wrote
Not even close:

Ten most densely populated countries
If I had meant to write 'most densely populated country' I would have. I did not. You interpreted what I wrote incorrectly and to your benefit.

If you cannot comprehend that this string of words:
"most concentrated population density"

differs from this one in meaning:
"most densely populated country"

then discussing this with you is pointless.

Off to PM this goes.
China Hand no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2012, 03:23 AM   #4398
hmmwv
Registered User
 
hmmwv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,391
Likes (Received): 420

Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
That's funny, I wonder why the Beijing-Shanghai would head west starting out. It must loop back somehow to head south-east. Maybe that's why the train goes so slow for the first few minutes before it speeds up in the video. Still kinda confused but I'm trying to map it in my head. Too bad we don't have a map showing the individual high speed rail lines. If Google maps were updated for the CRH lines that would be perfect.
It only heads west for a couple of miles before turning southbound, then it turns to southeast in Daxing District.
__________________
The building under construction next to Shanghai Tower is Oriental Financial Center. The "plot" next to Jinmao is reserved green belt and no skyscraper will be built there.
hmmwv no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2012, 10:54 PM   #4399
Restless
Registered User
 
Restless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,170
Likes (Received): 271

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Not even close:

Ten most densely populated countries

With population above 1 million
Rank Country/Region Population Area (km2) Density
(Pop. per km2)
1 Singapore 5,183,700 710 7301
2 Bahrain 1,234,596 750 1646
3 Bangladesh 152,518,015 147,570 1034
4 Taiwan (R.O.C) 22,955,395 36,190 634
5 Mauritius 1,288,000 2,040 631
6 South Korea 48,456,369 99,538 487
6-7 China-16provinces 883million 1,990,000 km2 443people per km2
7 Rwanda 10,718,379 26,338 407
8 England 53,013,000 130,440 406
9 Netherlands 16,760,000 41,526 404
10 Lebanon 4,224,000 10,452 404
10+ USA - Northeast Corridor 50million people 139,000 km2 360people per km2



China has lots of inhabitants, but it is also immense geographically.


There are big areas with a very high population density, but the same goes for the US.
Please see the most densely populated areas of the USA and China above, with the population figures highlighted in RED.

You can clearly see that 883million people in China would constitute the 7th most densely populated country in the world, whilst the USA Northeast Corridor doesn't even make the list.

Also remember that smaller countries have no need for HSR
Restless no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2012, 01:01 AM   #4400
Silly_Walks
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,978
Likes (Received): 836

Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
Please see the most densely populated areas of the USA and China above, with the population figures highlighted in RED.

You can clearly see that 883million people in China would constitute the 7th most densely populated country in the world, whilst the USA Northeast Corridor doesn't even make the list.

Also remember that smaller countries have no need for HSR
Spain: Density 93/km2
France: Density 116/km2
Germany: Density 229/km2

The Northeast Corridor of the USA with 360/km2 and the China 16 provinces with 443/km2 BOTH warrant HSR.
There is no discussion.
Silly_Walks no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
china, high speed rail

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium