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Old September 15th, 2012, 01:17 AM   #4401
FM 2258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
It only heads west for a couple of miles before turning southbound, then it turns to southeast in Daxing District.
Thanks, I can see that now in the video. When I thought the train was heading east I was wondering why the train seemed to veer "north"
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Old September 15th, 2012, 02:21 PM   #4402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Spain: Density 93/km2
France: Density 116/km2
Germany: Density 229/km2

The Northeast Corridor of the USA with 360/km2 and the China 16 provinces with 443/km2 BOTH warrant HSR.

There is no discussion.
You know better and you are going to force others to do what is best, no matter what.

"There is no discussion."

There is a single word for the preceding sentence, used in a discussion of Politics and Policy. You appear nominally intelligent. Figure it out.

The USA NE corridor already has HSR at the very bottom of the definition. Yeah, 200kph is not 380kph or 431kph, but it is HSR.

There is also NO available cheap land adjacent to the NE Corridor railway right of way between DC and Boston and if you knew the subject, the area and were honest, you would know this and have done at least a basic back of envelope calculation. If you had taken a train on those tracks you would know that buildings, infrastructure and hi-rises abut the right of way within less than a metre in many places, that there are long stretches underground and in trenches that are immediately next to hundred's of neighbourhoods and to widen said right of way would be extremely costly.

In order to build CRH style HSR between DC and Boston, the existing lines would have to be destroyed, or adjacent right of way have to be purchased.

The costs would be enormous, the benefits minimal, especially since air shuttles serve that corridor.

Try your unilateral declaration by fiat on someone who has not lived in that part of the world, who has not worked in construction, who does not know the Davis-Bacon Act wage act, does not know the cost per hour including benefits of a worker for such a project, and does not know the opinions of Americans who live in the NE Corridor.
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Old September 15th, 2012, 07:48 PM   #4403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
The costs would be enormous, the benefits minimal, especially since air shuttles serve that corridor.
I swore I was going to ignore you in the USA HSR thread, but I nearly died after reading that line.

REALLY? Air shuttles? I don't need to live in the NE; I don't even need to think to know that airports require a LOT more space than two extra lines of rail, not to mention that the area AROUND the airport has to be completely free of buildings as well. Expanding the existing airports to support shuttle air the way you refer to will cost MUCH more than building a few more tunnels and paying to knock down a few houses.


Would you also kindly explain why, in the 30 years you profess to live in the USA why shuttle flights in the NEC hold less than 25% of all intercity trips in the region (with 75% held by rail alone)???

I originally thought you were against CA HSR due to practicality concerns, which I'd be more forgiving, but seriously, now you're trying to bash the NEC?


Oh, and for once, it is very clear that everyone wants HSR in the NEC. You rarely get bipartisan support for rail these days, yet even the Republicans are forced to concede that rail investment there makes sense; the entirety of Connecticut threw a fit when it learned that the Future Plan for the NEC planned to jump them.



You want this argument to have straight facts? Get yours right first before you even post.
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Old September 15th, 2012, 11:46 PM   #4404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
You know better and you are going to force others to do what is best, no matter what.

"There is no discussion."

There is a single word for the preceding sentence, used in a discussion of Politics and Policy. You appear nominally intelligent. Figure it out.

The USA NE corridor already has HSR at the very bottom of the definition. Yeah, 200kph is not 380kph or 431kph, but it is HSR.

There is also NO available cheap land adjacent to the NE Corridor railway right of way between DC and Boston and if you knew the subject, the area and were honest, you would know this and have done at least a basic back of envelope calculation. If you had taken a train on those tracks you would know that buildings, infrastructure and hi-rises abut the right of way within less than a metre in many places, that there are long stretches underground and in trenches that are immediately next to hundred's of neighbourhoods and to widen said right of way would be extremely costly.

In order to build CRH style HSR between DC and Boston, the existing lines would have to be destroyed, or adjacent right of way have to be purchased.

The costs would be enormous, the benefits minimal, especially since air shuttles serve that corridor.

Try your unilateral declaration by fiat on someone who has not lived in that part of the world, who has not worked in construction, who does not know the Davis-Bacon Act wage act, does not know the cost per hour including benefits of a worker for such a project, and does not know the opinions of Americans who live in the NE Corridor.
Don't get your panties in a bunch. All I was saying is that other areas with much lower population densities than the NEC have HSR that works, so HSR in the NEC makes sense when the population density is used as the main motivator.
I was saying when it comes to population density, there is no discussion that both the NEC and the densely populated provinces of China warrant HSR.

Geez... if you WANT to get insulted and are actively LOOKING for insults, you are gonna find them EVERYWHERE, even with people who are not in disagreement with you.

Last edited by Silly_Walks; September 16th, 2012 at 12:09 AM.
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Old September 16th, 2012, 01:31 AM   #4405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
Please see the most densely populated areas of the USA and China above, with the population figures highlighted in RED.

You can clearly see that 883million people in China would constitute the 7th most densely populated country in the world, whilst the USA Northeast Corridor doesn't even make the list.

Also remember that smaller countries have no need for HSR
So if it's not in the top 10, HSR cannot be justified? Even though countries that are less-densely populated than the NEC, i.e. Japan, India, have or are looking to construct national HSR networks? Even though the NEC is looks to have a population increase of almost 20% over the next 40 years, thus necessitating more real estate development, thus leading to less land for road and airport expansion, thus necessitating a higher-density method of transportation?

Just so my post isn't a continuation of the OT-ness, I'll ask something I've been wondering about.

For passenger service between Shanghai and Hong Kong, is the plan to funnel trains from Shanghai to Zhuzhou and then south, or will the southeast coast line be the primary corridor for these passengers? And also, is there a plan to link Hainan Island to the mainland?
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Old September 16th, 2012, 04:28 AM   #4406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Spain: Density 93/km2
France: Density 116/km2
Germany: Density 229/km2

The Northeast Corridor of the USA with 360/km2 and the China 16 provinces with 443/km2 BOTH warrant HSR.
I have repeatedly pointed out the many other factors that need to be taken in to consideration in addition to km2 density, in this thread and the USA HSR thread.

You simply refuse to acknowledge these other considerations and look only at this one metric.

Last edited by China Hand; September 16th, 2012 at 04:43 AM.
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Old September 16th, 2012, 12:22 PM   #4407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
I have repeatedly pointed out the many other factors that need to be taken in to consideration in addition to km2 density, in this thread and the USA HSR thread.

You simply refuse to acknowledge these other considerations and look only at this one metric.
Like, OMG, AMERICANS LOVES THEIR CARS AND WILL NEVER TRAVEL ON ANYTHING ELSE?
But that isn't true, even Acella, which isn't the best HSR service in the world (and not the cheapest one) have it's ridership!
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Old September 16th, 2012, 04:28 PM   #4408
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Beijing to Hong Kong HSR Line

From bbs.ourail.com, NOT official:

Code:
STATION                                   PLATFORMS/TRACKS | FLOOR AREA (m^2)
北京西   Beijing West           0.00 km        10/20           170000
涿州东   Zhuozhou East         59.06 km         2/ 4             5997
高碑店东  Gaobeidian East       83.69 km         2/ 4             5984
保定东   Baoding East         138.55 km         2/ 6            14958
定州东   Dingzhou East        199.77 km         2/ 4             6000
石家庄机场 Shijiazhuang Airport 244.11 km         2/ 4             9930
石家庄南  Shijiazhuang South   280.25 km        13/30           107059
高邑西   Gaoyi West           323.01 km         2/ 4             5000
邢台东   Xingtai East         383.79 km         2/ 6             8000
邯郸东   Handan East          436.52 km         3/ 7            10000
安阳东   Anyang East          496.48 km         3/ 7            15994
鹤壁东   Hebi East            542.35 km         2/ 6            13903
新乡东   Xinxiang East        594.88 km         2/ 6            15995
郑州东   Zhengzhou East       662.77 km        16/34           149981
许昌东   Xuchang East         743.59 km         3/10            13989
漯河西   Luohe West           798.94 km         2/ 6            15645
驻马店西  Zhumadian West       863.56 km         2/ 6            13986
明港东   Minggang East        916.84 km         2/ 4             2977
信阳东   Xinyang East         960.19 km         2/ 6            15979
孝感北   Xiaogan North       1024.07 km         2/ 6            11976
武汉    Wuhan               1136.35 km        11/20           114600
咸宁北   Xianning North      1220.82 km         2/ 6             9618
赤壁北   Chibi North         1263.92 km         2/ 4             6230
岳阳东   Yueyang East        1345.88 km         3/ 7            15225
汨罗东   Miluo East          1415.93 km         2/ 4             6201
长沙南   Changsha South      1483.64 km        13/28           149508
株洲西   Zhuzhou West        1523.54 km         3/ 7            15435
衡山西   Hengshan West       1591.09 km         2/ 4             7275
衡阳东   Hengyang East       1632.24 km         5/11            22128
耒阳西   Leiyang West        1687.44 km         2/ 4             6060
郴州西   Chenzhou West       1766.14 km         2/ 6            12142
韶关    Shaoguan            1895.85 km         2/ 6            15820
英德西   Yingde West         1965.74 km         2/ 4             6600
清远    Qingyuan            2022.89 km         2/ 4            10396
广州北   Guangzhou North     2059.64 km         2/ 4
广州南   Guangzhou South     2105.36 km        15/28           179300
庆盛    Qingsheng           2136.13 km         2/ 4             8033
虎门    Humen               2155.10 km         2/ 6            10000
光明城   Guangmingcheng      2191.25 km         2/ 4
深圳北   Shenzhen North      2207.59 km        11/20
福田    Futian              2216.31 km         4/ 8           140000
西九龍   West Kowloon        2247.31 km        12/15           380000

Last edited by yaohua2000; September 16th, 2012 at 04:49 PM.
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Old September 16th, 2012, 07:01 PM   #4409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaohua2000 View Post
From bbs.ourail.com, NOT official:

Code:
STATION                                   PLATFORMS/TRACKS | FLOOR AREA (m^2)
清远    Qingyuan            2022.89 km         2/ 4            10396
广州北   Guangzhou North     2059.64 km         2/ 4
广州南   Guangzhou South     2105.36 km        15/28           179300
虎门    Humen               2155.10 km         2/ 6            10000
光明城   Guangmingcheng      2191.25 km         2/ 4
深圳北   Shenzhen North      2207.59 km        11/20
福田    Futian              2216.31 km         4/ 8           140000
The gaps are curious, especially since all these stations are open. Can someone tell the floor areas of those stations?
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Old September 16th, 2012, 07:02 PM   #4410
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Is West Kowloon floor are really that big? I mean, it is bigger than Wuhan and Guangzhou South combined????
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Old September 16th, 2012, 07:09 PM   #4411
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I like how the Chinese name their railway stations mostly after the cardinal direction.
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Old September 17th, 2012, 05:31 AM   #4412
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Quote:
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Is West Kowloon floor are really that big? I mean, it is bigger than Wuhan and Guangzhou South combined????
Maybe it includes the office space built on top. Last time I checked there was plans for that. That's something China should pick up all that space at the tops of those massive railway stations is a huge waste.
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Old September 17th, 2012, 07:02 AM   #4413
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Maybe it includes the office space built on top. Last time I checked there was plans for that. That's something China should pick up all that space at the tops of those massive railway stations is a huge waste.
That's interesting...now that you've mentioned it, I'm not sure I ever saw a hotel establishment in any of the stations I visited. Kind of hard to believe now that I think back on it. They'd make a killing.
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Old September 17th, 2012, 11:27 AM   #4414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
That's interesting...now that you've mentioned it, I'm not sure I ever saw a hotel establishment in any of the stations I visited. Kind of hard to believe now that I think back on it. They'd make a killing.
There is Super 8 Hotel besides PL 1 in Beijing South Railway Station: http://www.super8.com.cn/Hotel/HotelDetail.aspx?oid=504
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Old September 17th, 2012, 11:40 AM   #4415
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Rail to offer SZ-Xi’an in 9 hours
2012-September-17 08:53
Shenzhen Daily

PASSENGERS from Shenzhen will be able to reach the northwestern China city and tourist destination of Xi’an in about nine hours after the opening of a new high-speed rail line, Chinese-language media reported over the weekend.

The Guangzhou and Xi’an line is under tests this month. The test speed for trains running between Guangzhou and Xi’an was 310 kilometers per hour, or 192 miles per hour.

High-speed rail lines between Xi’an and Zhengzhou, and Wuhan and Guangzhou, have been put into use. The opening of the Zhengzhou-Wuhan high-speed line during the National Day holiday will connect Guangzhou and Xi’an.

There is no schedule yet for high-speed trains linking Shenzhen and Xi’an. It now takes 36 hours on trains K134/131, or 30 hours on trains K446/447, to travel from Shenzhen to Xi’an, which is known for historic relics and is more than 2,000 kilometers from Shenzhen.

The fare of the Shenzhen-Xi’an high-speed trains is expected to reach 1,000 yuan (US$158), more than double the price for a sleeper between the two cities.

In related news, the former Buji Railway Station will be re-named Shenzhen East Railway Station and is scheduled to open at the end of October.

The railway station, part of Buji’s transport hub, is linked with Metro’s Longgang and Huanzhong lines and with the Guangzhou-Shenzhen railway. Covering 127,000 square meters, the terminal also offers city bus, taxi and long-distance bus services.

Shenzhen East Railway Station is designed to handle 50,000 passengers a day in its initial stages.
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Old September 17th, 2012, 07:31 PM   #4416
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Quote:
'Like, OMG, AMERICANS LOVES THEIR CARS AND WILL NEVER TRAVEL ON ANYTHING ELSE?"
Not in the numbers you want, and not enough to cover debt service of the loans to build HSR in the USA.

Not when academics and theoreticians and supporters of HSR ignore the concerns of the USA transportation market. Telling a people to do something because you HSR supporters think it is better for a culture tends to not be accepted by people in many cultures, USA included.

China has HSR that is wonderful. I enjoy riding it and think it is terrific.

China also has a policy that manifests as officials showing up at your home, house, business, farm or apartment and telling you that you have days to move and you have little or no legal or financial recourse. They paint the character 拆 on your door. They seize your property (not the land) and tell you to move and that's it. You move. They bulldoze it and then construct the new wider 4-lane road.

I see this every week with local road expansion as they simply seize and destroy what is in the way. Farms, houses and businesses too close to the road, etc.

This makes it easy to get right of way for CRH pylons, track, stations and tunnels but it would be in violation of so many USA laws that guarantee personal property rights that to enumerate them would fill libraries.

This is yet another aspect that you all simply ignore, do not care about, or simply brush aside. It is not trivial, but you treat it as such.
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Old September 17th, 2012, 08:59 PM   #4417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaohua2000 View Post
There is Super 8 Hotel besides PL 1 in Beijing South Railway Station: http://www.super8.com.cn/Hotel/HotelDetail.aspx?oid=504
I was speaking about the kind of setup you'll see in airports (an airport inside the actual facilities).
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Old September 17th, 2012, 09:04 PM   #4418
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one must remember the regional connections a HSR customer would need apon arrival at his destination. any city with a stop on a HSR line must have strong transit connections to the stop, or else the travellers would have no way to get to their final destination. and the US fails miserably on the local transit service. (generally)
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Old September 17th, 2012, 11:47 PM   #4419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
I was speaking about the kind of setup you'll see in airports (an airport inside the actual facilities).
Well hotels in airports make sense because the majority of the guests are there to catch the flight early in the next morning to avoid traffic delays. Railway stations are set up in a way that such need is minimum, because you don't have to arrive super early, and if you miss the train due to traffic there is always another one 15 minutes later.
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Old September 18th, 2012, 12:18 AM   #4420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Rail to offer SZ-Xi’an in 9 hours
2012-September-17 08:53
Shenzhen Daily

PASSENGERS from Shenzhen will be able to reach the northwestern China city and tourist destination of Xi’an in about nine hours after the opening of a new high-speed rail line, Chinese-language media reported over the weekend.
In other words, about 4:50 for 978 km Wuhan-Xian?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post

There is no schedule yet for high-speed trains linking Shenzhen and Xi’an. It now takes 36 hours on trains K134/131, or 30 hours on trains K446/447, to travel from Shenzhen to Xi’an, which is known for historic relics and is more than 2,000 kilometers from Shenzhen.
2160 km on low speed railway. On high speed railway... 2050 km?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
The fare of the Shenzhen-Xi’an high-speed trains is expected to reach 1,000 yuan (US$158), more than double the price for a sleeper between the two cities.
Since it is 9 hours, shall any high speed sleeper trains operate on the line?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
In related news, the former Buji Railway Station will be re-named Shenzhen East Railway Station and is scheduled to open at the end of October.
Is Shenzhen East Railway Station then not on Shenzhen North-Xiamen high speed railway in Pingshan new area?
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