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Old October 28th, 2012, 06:37 PM   #4761
chornedsnorkack
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Seems that there are currently 11 daily flights Zhengzhou-Guangzhou. So frequencies are identical.

Trip time is 2:10 to 2:25.
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Old October 28th, 2012, 07:45 PM   #4762
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Surely airplanes could out-compete a train on distances this large. Unless maybe they are not allowed to...
Dude, I think you are not aware of the investment China doing on air travel. 2 out of 3 airports currently under construction on the world is in China and passenger aircraft development is a priority project as rail development for the government. There is no way a situation can arise where airlines "are not allowed to compete".


I still choose the high speed rail in any case
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Old October 28th, 2012, 09:50 PM   #4763
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Work begins on high-speed railway in western China

XI'AN - Construction work started Saturday on a major high-speed railway in China's western hinterland to promote local economic cooperation and development.
The 643-km-long railway line for passenger transport links Xi'an, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi Province to Chengdu, capital of the southwestern province of Sichuan.
The project will be completed in five years with an investment of more than 40 billion yuan (about 6.35 billion US dollars). The travel time between the two cities will be shortened to three hours from 12 hours currently, after the new railway is put into operation.
The line will have 127 km of tunnels to pass through the Qinling Mountains.
China aims to basically complete the construction of a high-speed railway network with a total operating length of more than 40,000 km by the end of 2015.
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Old October 28th, 2012, 10:22 PM   #4764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George08 View Post
XI'AN - Construction work started Saturday on a major high-speed railway in China's western hinterland to promote local economic cooperation and development.
The 643-km-long railway line for passenger transport links Xi'an, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi Province to Chengdu, capital of the southwestern province of Sichuan.
Which means that Chengdu-Zhengzhou would be 1100 km.
Quote:
Originally Posted by George08 View Post
The project will be completed in five years with an investment of more than 40 billion yuan (about 6.35 billion US dollars). The travel time between the two cities will be shortened to three hours from 12 hours currently, after the new railway is put into operation.
Completed thus in late 2017.
Under 5 hours Zhengzhou-Chengdu.
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Originally Posted by George08 View Post
China aims to basically complete the construction of a high-speed railway network with a total operating length of more than 40,000 km by the end of 2015.
Except that this line shall not be completed by the end of 2015, so that is another network....
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Old October 29th, 2012, 01:41 AM   #4765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Dude, I think you are not aware of the investment China doing on air travel. 2 out of 3 airports currently under construction on the world is in China and passenger aircraft development is a priority project as rail development for the government. There is no way a situation can arise where airlines "are not allowed to compete".


I still choose the high speed rail in any case
It looks like China is upgrading every aspect of transportation in their country. I think this is a very good way to go and ultimately allows more people to travel the country much more efficiently.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 01:01 PM   #4766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George08 View Post
XI'AN - Construction work started Saturday on a major high-speed railway in China's western hinterland to promote local economic cooperation and development.
The 643-km-long railway line for passenger transport links Xi'an, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi Province to Chengdu, capital of the southwestern province of Sichuan.
The project will be completed in five years with an investment of more than 40 billion yuan (about 6.35 billion US dollars). The travel time between the two cities will be shortened to three hours from 12 hours currently, after the new railway is put into operation.
The line will have 127 km of tunnels to pass through the Qinling Mountains.
China aims to basically complete the construction of a high-speed railway network with a total operating length of more than 40,000 km by the end of 2015.
Earlier it was reported that the construction of a Xi'an–Chengdu high speed railway would begin by the end of 2010: Work begins on high speed line through Qinling mountains.
As Xi'an–Chengdu is no Shanghai–Nanjing, I assume these are the same line. Was the construction start delayed by two years, or does this more recent article actually refer the start of tracklaying? Also, the length of the line was quoted as 511 km. Is 643 km perhaps the distance along the current line?
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Old October 29th, 2012, 09:38 PM   #4767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Dude, I think you are not aware of the investment China doing on air travel. 2 out of 3 airports currently under construction on the world is in China and passenger aircraft development is a priority project as rail development for the government. There is no way a situation can arise where airlines "are not allowed to compete".
How many airports are constructed is not the point here at all. The question is will low cost budget airlines arise and be allowed to fly on the route like this. If yes then they ought to dominate this particular market segment.

And before anyone mentions it, I'm aware that train also has intermediate stations but in this case we are comparing point to point traffic only.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 10:06 PM   #4768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
How many airports are constructed is not the point here at all. The question is will low cost budget airlines arise and be allowed to fly on the route like this. If yes then they ought to dominate this particular market segment.

And before anyone mentions it, I'm aware that train also has intermediate stations but in this case we are comparing point to point traffic only.
In China, landing charges and taxes are pretty high, so low-cost airlines can't really offer dirt cheap fares like here in Europe.

And I don't see that changing given that building new airports is expensive, and they have to make a profit.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 10:34 PM   #4769
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Wuhan-XiAn is kind of similar to London-Newcastle in terms of travel time for planes (1h30min) and trains (3h-4h).

There are about 10 flights per day, but most people take the 225km/h trains because it works out better in terms of cost, total travel time and comfort.
Even Ryanair don't bother with that route, and they're even more penny-pinching and cheap than Southwest.

Here's some of the overall analysis

CAAC Director Li Jiaxiang stated some 50% of flights less than 500 km in length could become unprofitable as a result of competition from high-speed trains and around 20% of flights of between 800 and 1000 km could also run at a loss for the same reason. But sectors above 1500 km are not likely to be threatened, he added.

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...eed-rail-50007

So the planes will get redeployed to new routes.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 11:25 PM   #4770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
How many airports are constructed is not the point here at all. The question is will low cost budget airlines arise and be allowed to fly on the route like this. If yes then they ought to dominate this particular market segment.
??

It is absolutely the POINT. You are questioning the intend of the government so the investment done by the government on airports and airplanes debugs your prejudice.
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Old October 30th, 2012, 12:20 AM   #4771
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A factor which doesn't exist in the west is that in China, the state has explicitly designated aviation as a strategic sector to be dominated by state-owned airlines. Which means the state will use various means to ensure that low cost airlines in China will exist, but not be able to challenge the dominance of their own players. So for the foreseeable there will be no counterparts to RyanAir or Southwest which drove the legacy airlines to bankruptcy.
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Old October 30th, 2012, 01:16 AM   #4772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanfan89 View Post
A factor which doesn't exist in the west is that in China, the state has explicitly designated aviation as a strategic sector to be dominated by state-owned airlines. Which means the state will use various means to ensure that low cost airlines in China will exist, but not be able to challenge the dominance of their own players. So for the foreseeable there will be no counterparts to RyanAir or Southwest which drove the legacy airlines to bankruptcy.
Aren't air tickets for domestic flights in China cheap anyway? How much a Beijing-Shanghai or Shenzhen-Shanghai return flight would cost booking a couple of weeks in advance?
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Old October 30th, 2012, 01:45 AM   #4773
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
??

It is absolutely the POINT. You are questioning the intend of the government so the investment done by the government on airports and airplanes debugs your prejudice.
The only way I can interpret this answer is that your command of English was insufficient to fully understand my post...
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Old October 30th, 2012, 01:50 AM   #4774
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanfan89 View Post
A factor which doesn't exist in the west is that in China, the state has explicitly designated aviation as a strategic sector to be dominated by state-owned airlines. Which means the state will use various means to ensure that low cost airlines in China will exist, but not be able to challenge the dominance of their own players. So for the foreseeable there will be no counterparts to RyanAir or Southwest which drove the legacy airlines to bankruptcy.
This, on the other hand, is much more to the point and I agree that this is the most likely near future scenario.
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Old October 30th, 2012, 09:32 AM   #4775
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
The only way I can interpret this answer is that your command of English was insufficient to fully understand my post...
Please enlighten me, professor.

You said government may not let airlines to compete with high speed trains in your first post.

Then you slightly modified your post with low cost airlines instead of the whole sector.

Now you are implying government wont let low cost airlines to form to compete with his own airlines.

How convenient!

Oh keep in mind government backed airlines especially in China ought to out-compete private, completely profit driven airlines If there is anyone who can compete with high speed rail in China it is government backed airlines...
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Old October 30th, 2012, 09:46 AM   #4776
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Originally Posted by Restless View Post
In China, landing charges and taxes are pretty high, so low-cost airlines can't really offer dirt cheap fares like here in Europe.

And I don't see that changing given that building new airports is expensive, and they have to make a profit.
What shall the expensive new airports do - keep landing charges high and stay empty and make losses, or fill the airport with low cost planes at low landing charges and also make losses?

Also, just because space is built on ground does not mean there shall be space in heaven.

How long, actually, is the Guangzhou-Zhengzhou high speed railway? What I found is 1442 km Guangzhou South-Zhengzhou East and 1545 km Shenzhen North-Zhengzhou East... is high speed rail competitive with air on distances of 1442 km (Guangzhou-Zhengzhou) or 1487 km (Beijing-Shanghai-Hangzhou)?
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Old October 30th, 2012, 08:19 PM   #4777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
What shall the expensive new airports do - keep landing charges high and stay empty and make losses, or fill the airport with low cost planes at low landing charges and also make losses?

Also, just because space is built on ground does not mean there shall be space in heaven.

How long, actually, is the Guangzhou-Zhengzhou high speed railway? What I found is 1442 km Guangzhou South-Zhengzhou East and 1545 km Shenzhen North-Zhengzhou East... is high speed rail competitive with air on distances of 1442 km (Guangzhou-Zhengzhou) or 1487 km (Beijing-Shanghai-Hangzhou)?
The expensive new airports will keep charges high, because they know passenger numbers will still grow at 10%+ every year, and the airport will need to build a new terminal before long.

The upper limit of time competitiveness between 350km/h rail is normally around 800km-1000km, so it is faster to get a plane for a 1500km journey.
But on a 1500km journey, you have space to use a laptop effectively for 4hours whilst it is wasted time on a cramped airplane. And how much is that time worth?
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Old October 30th, 2012, 09:58 PM   #4778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
The upper limit of time competitiveness between 350km/h rail is normally around 800km-1000km, so it is faster to get a plane for a 1500km journey.
But on a 1500km journey, you have space to use a laptop effectively for 4hours whilst it is wasted time on a cramped airplane.
So, how competitive has 4:48 for the 1318 km Beijing-Shanghai been?

By comparison, although Beijing-Hangzhou and Guangzhou-Zhengzhou are both under 1500 km, both take over 6 hours. So how popular have they been, in actual practice?
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Old October 30th, 2012, 10:59 PM   #4779
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
The expensive new airports will keep charges high, because they know passenger numbers will still grow at 10%+ every year, and the airport will need to build a new terminal before long.

The upper limit of time competitiveness between 350km/h rail is normally around 800km-1000km, so it is faster to get a plane for a 1500km journey.
But on a 1500km journey, you have space to use a laptop effectively for 4hours whilst it is wasted time on a cramped airplane. And how much is that time worth?
I really enjoyed this kind of analysis!
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Old October 30th, 2012, 11:27 PM   #4780
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Aren't air tickets for domestic flights in China cheap anyway? How much a Beijing-Shanghai or Shenzhen-Shanghai return flight would cost booking a couple of weeks in advance?
The state clearly fears private low-cost carriers enough to prevent their explosive growth that is taking place elsewhere in Asia.
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