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Old November 21st, 2012, 11:30 AM   #4881
China Hand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
Keep in mind the huge Qin Mountains span between Xi'an and Chongqing. The expressway of Xian-Chongqing is one of the most difficult ever built. It'll cost huge building a HSR line between them.
If any nation has the political will, the political drive, the economic means and the engineering talent to undertake such a project, it is the Chinese.

I would say they will do it just for bragging rights.

"This is how strong we are..."
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Old November 21st, 2012, 11:48 AM   #4882
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
There are domestic security concerns that drive many of these new CRH lines to be installed.

Imagine how many armed troops you can ship from Beijing to Urumqi, if you make the car SRO and run it over night at 380kph. One train is a few thousand people. Makes internal security a snap.
16 cars is about 1300 seats on Shinkansen.

But if problems exist, HSR is neither fastest nor safest. 1 CRH train has about as many seats as 2 A380-s. And more importantly, rails are relatively easy to attack or sabotage - 2000 km of rails through empty desert are hard to guard everywhere. Guarding the perimetre of a 3 km airport runway is easier.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 02:46 PM   #4883
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
If any nation has the political will, the political drive, the economic means and the engineering talent to undertake such a project, it is the Chinese.

I would say they will do it just for bragging rights.

"This is how strong we are..."

Wait, what? There aren't even any plans for this at all, right?

I thought the map posted earlier was just fiction
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Old November 21st, 2012, 06:13 PM   #4884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
But if problems exist, HSR is neither fastest nor safest. 1 CRH train has about as many seats as 2 A380-s. And more importantly, rails are relatively easy to attack or sabotage - 2000 km of rails through empty desert are hard to guard everywhere. Guarding the perimetre of a 3 km airport runway is easier.
LOL

No. It may be easier to guard a runway than to guard a high speed railway, but that does not make air any safer.

Airplanes carry large amounts of flammable fuel, so in the event of any accident, combustion is ALWAYS a problem. In fact, there are many cases of air crashes in which the fatalities were not attributed to the collision but rather to burns and smoke inhalation. High speed trains run on electricity, which completely negates this threat.

Cabin pressurization also makes the fuselage succeptible to rupture. It doesn't take much to make a hole in the side of an airplane, but once it does, it is sufficient to rip the plane to pieces. For any train, an explosion will only have an immediate effect; a grenade-like bomb would only injure the people immediately surrounding it. In the Madrid train bombings, the bombers had to detonate multiple bombs per car in order to maximize casualties.

Airplanes also fly in the air and are piloted by humans. The room for error between an airline pilot and a train driver are very small and relatively large, respectively, with train driver pretty much only in charge of speed, since the train runs on a predetermined path.

Lastly, it is NOTORIOUSLY difficult to derail a train. The sheer inertia of the train is its greatest safety, allowing it to plow through most attempts of sabotage with ease. As you can see from this video, the train simply barrels through gaps in the track and continues. The same goes for bomb attempts; damage is extremely localized and pose no risk of derailment. Entire carriages have been torn asunder with minimal effect to the entire train. Even if the train DOES derail, the law of inertia still applies in that the train will continue to travel in a straight line until it comes to a complete stop. This is usually what happens, with no fatalities. Train services in Germany, Taiwan, and Japan have been known to derail at full speed (300kmh) under varying circumstances and all managed to safetly come to a stop without injuring its passengers.

The only way to obtain the same scale of disaster is to completely obstruct the train's path with something of parable mass to the train; the only example of this is Eschede.


I believe that the validity of my claim that high speed rail is MUCH safer than air travel can be checked by one final factoid; that there have only been two fatal incidents in the entire half-century history of high speed rail (Eschede and Wenzhou), compared to the cases of downed aircraft we see on the news every year.

EDIT: Fixed wrong video code.
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Last edited by Silver Swordsman; November 22nd, 2012 at 02:17 PM.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 06:54 PM   #4885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Swordsman View Post
The only way to obtain the same scale of disaster is to completely obstruct the train's path with something of parable mass to the train; the only example of this is Eschede.
And even Eschede only hit the bridge because a half ton 1.5 metre long 10cm thick piece of steel pinned itself into the train at one end (and unfortunately straight through a passenger) and into the ground at the other, ploughing through ballast and sleepers at 200km/h and steering the vehicle off course to one side. It needed something sustained like that to drag it away from the track.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 09:30 PM   #4886
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Lastly, it is NOTORIOUSLY difficult to derail a train. The sheer inertia of the train is its greatest safety, allowing it to plow through most attempts of sabotage with ease. As you can see from this video, the train simply barrels through gaps in the track and continues. The same goes for bomb attempts; damage is extremely localized and pose no risk of derailment. Entire carriages have been torn asunder with minimal effect to the entire train. Even if the train DOES derail, the law of inertia still applies in that the train will continue to travel in a straight line until it comes to a complete stop. This is usually what happens, with no fatalities. Train services in Germany, Taiwan, and Japan have been known to derail at full speed (300kmh) under varying circumstances and all managed to safetly come to a stop without injuring its passengers.
Whoa, what? You're thinking only of sabotage on a train, which is what that Mole video is about. It's pretty easy to derail a train by shifting or blowing up the track. Just as highways must be straighter at higher speeds, so too must railway tracks be at high speed. High speed trains have little tolerance for track misalignment because of the speeds they run at, so if there is even a moderate bend or break in the track, the first car will derail.

Once the first train car derails, every other single train will derail until the train runs out of momentum. High speed trains running at 300+ km/h will not "barrel through" a gap in the track, as if the train were a person jumping over puddles. As soon as the first car hits the massive friction that comes from going off the rails and onto the ground, the inertia from the rear cars still running at top speed on the rails will cause the first car to jack knife and crash the whole train with catastrophic effects.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 09:36 PM   #4887
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If we're going to judge sorely based on passenger traffic or commercial viability, many of the infrastructure works in Tibet and Xinjiang are unnecessary and unjustified. These include Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR; they also include many highways, airports, etc.

The economic case is stronger in Xinjiang than Tibet. Xinjiang is shaping up to be one of the China's largest energy production base. See Xinjiang Poised to Become China’s Largest Coal Producer: Will Move Global Coal, Natural Gas, and Crude Oil Markets. The existing conventional line between Lanzhou and Urumqi will be increasingly used by freight, whereas the new HSR will be used for passenger traffic. The HSR alone might still not be profitable, but the increased freight traffic on the conventional line due to the increased capacity will go a long way to compensate the loss on HSR.

There are obviously also political and security reasons to justify the HSR and the associated cost, which may be equally important as the economic reason. Of course, the cost differential between a 350km/h line and a 200km/h line being much smaller than in other regions is also a favorable consideration for building the Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR.



Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
There are domestic security concerns that drive many of these new CRH lines to be installed.

Imagine how many armed troops you can ship from Beijing to Urumqi, if you make the car SRO and run it over night at 380kph. One train is a few thousand people. Makes internal security a snap.



Tourism, having a ZGT network that covers the entire nation, connects most of the major cities, security, bragging rights, The New Silk Road to Russia or Kazakhstan, and national pride.

"Ride the world's largest and fastest high speed rail network through stunning vistas of immense beauty as you take in China's vast western interior."

Train leaves Xi'an (already a major world tourism destination) at 800 am and arrives in Ulumuqi at 600pm local time. 220 to 245 avg kph. It makes for a compelling long distance trip to see vast expanses.

Train riding fans like to take trips like this...

Last edited by highway35; November 21st, 2012 at 09:48 PM. Reason: hyperlink coding correction
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Old November 21st, 2012, 11:38 PM   #4888
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Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
Wait, what? There aren't even any plans for this at all, right?

I thought the map posted earlier was just fiction
No. One segment of it (from Datong to Xian), which is 800km+ long, has been under construction for a few years.

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Old November 22nd, 2012, 02:00 AM   #4889
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
Wait, what? There aren't even any plans for this at all, right?

I thought the map posted earlier was just fiction

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=4839


It's going right through an earthquake prone region. Some redundancy is a good thing.

A reminder again, tourism is going to be huge in China.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 03:29 AM   #4890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyridgeline View Post
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=4839


It's going right through an earthquake prone region. Some redundancy is a good thing.

A reminder again, tourism is going to be huge in China.
It is partially dream, partially reality

I was just pointing as another North to South trunk line, the whole thing (Beijing to Kunming via Chongqing) would have been nice. That's all.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 09:42 AM   #4891
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What shall be the travel time Dalian-Shenyang-Changchun-Harbin this Sunday?
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 02:23 PM   #4892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geography View Post
Whoa, what? You're thinking only of sabotage on a train, which is what that Mole video is about. It's pretty easy to derail a train by shifting or blowing up the track. Just as highways must be straighter at higher speeds, so too must railway tracks be at high speed. High speed trains have little tolerance for track misalignment because of the speeds they run at, so if there is even a moderate bend or break in the track, the first car will derail.

Once the first train car derails, every other single train will derail until the train runs out of momentum. High speed trains running at 300+ km/h will not "barrel through" a gap in the track, as if the train were a person jumping over puddles. As soon as the first car hits the massive friction that comes from going off the rails and onto the ground, the inertia from the rear cars still running at top speed on the rails will cause the first car to jack knife and crash the whole train with catastrophic effects.
False. True, badly aligned track can derail a train at high speeds, but a single rut in the track will not, as apparent in the fixed video link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-8gV4DJZUw

I would also like to bring up Klaus-Peter Sabotta, a German rail saboteur who tried to derail an ICE by jacking distorting the rails by over 50 cm. When the train passed over at full speed, the only thing that happened was a bump. The only reason the ICE jackknifed at Eschede was because the overpass had collapsed and completely blocked it's path; if we see the cars that made it past before the bridge collapsed, you'll see that most of them stayed upright and intact.

The same goes for most high speed train derailments. Trains in Japan and Taiwan both derailed during earthquakes, but merely continued forward until they ground to a halt.


Your argument is invalid.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 08:54 PM   #4893
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Every train crash I've seen, freight or passenger, shows a jack-knifed wreckage. It seems to be the norm for train crashes. When I search for "train derailment" in Google, almost every single picture in the first pages shows jack-knifed wreckage. How do you explain that?








Jack knifing occurs with the front of an articulated vehicle (18-wheeler or train) suddenly slows down while the back section continues at high speed. The high-moving back section pushes up against the rapidly slowing front section and bends to the side (aka jack knifing). If the front of a train derails at high speed and rapidly decelerates, this is practically unavoidable unless the driver can hit the breaks immediately, before the driver is thrown about the cabin as it derails.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 10:34 PM   #4894
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Guys... this is getting really boring...
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 10:34 PM   #4895
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If I'm not mistaken, some improvements in design have been undertaken to avoid this (I'm thinking specifically of the new AVG trains in France)...
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 12:14 AM   #4896
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High-speed trains are normally designed as permanently coupled trainsets, with the strength to reduce the possibility of jackknifing.

===

"Due to High-speed rail track and equipment safety enhancements accidental derailments are now less lethal. Jenkins explains that high-speed train sets are designed with relatively rigid, semi-permanent connections while slower-speed trains rely on traditional "knuckle" couplers. These more rigid connections greatly reduce the probability of a train "jackknifing," or of partially or completely rolling over. Non-high-speed passenger trains tend to jackknife or flip over, causing a significantly high number of injuries and fatalities."

http://www.masstransitmag.com/articl...-commuter-rail
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 02:31 AM   #4897
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To all of your "derailing fans", please read about Jakobs bogie before you start commenting why trains behave like they do when they derail.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 06:14 AM   #4898
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Do China's HSR trainsets use Jakob bogies? I don't think they do. This picture appears to show independent bogies on each rail car, now a Jakob bogie connecting two cars. But it's a little difficult to tell for sure.

From Wikipedia by 颐园新居 on 10 August 2009:

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Old November 23rd, 2012, 04:30 PM   #4899
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Geography - Silver Swordsman's point is that high velocity incidents tend not to jackknife, and so to counter this argument you post pictures of low speed collisions...

The requirements of evidence to support your position is finding pictures of jackknifed coaches on high speed accidents that aren't Eschede, and don't involve collisions with other trains (i.e. accidents that correlate to sabotage which was the original point).

The only high speed trains that use Jacob's bogies are Talgo and TGV/AVG. Siemens, Shinkansen, all CRH etc etc use conventional bogies.
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Old November 24th, 2012, 12:10 AM   #4900
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Geography - Silver Swordsman's point is that high velocity incidents tend not to jackknife, and so to counter this argument you post pictures of low speed collisions...

The requirements of evidence to support your position is finding pictures of jackknifed coaches on high speed accidents that aren't Eschede, and don't involve collisions with other trains (i.e. accidents that correlate to sabotage which was the original point).

The only high speed trains that use Jacob's bogies are Talgo and TGV/AVG. Siemens, Shinkansen, all CRH etc etc use conventional bogies.
Didn't anyone read what the nice chap from the National Transportation Security Center (part of Homeland Security) said about derailing high-speed trains?

http://www.masstransitmag.com/articl...-commuter-rail
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