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Old November 24th, 2012, 10:07 AM   #4901
Silver Swordsman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Geography - Silver Swordsman's point is that high velocity incidents tend not to jackknife, and so to counter this argument you post pictures of low speed collisions...

The requirements of evidence to support your position is finding pictures of jackknifed coaches on high speed accidents that aren't Eschede, and don't involve collisions with other trains (i.e. accidents that correlate to sabotage which was the original point).

The only high speed trains that use Jacob's bogies are Talgo and TGV/AVG. Siemens, Shinkansen, all CRH etc etc use conventional bogies.
Thanks for giving an unsolvable question... as there are only two high speed train accidents in the entire world, although I would like to point out that Wenzhou, despite being a train collision, did not jackknife at all, the stiffness of the couplings forcing the train off the viaduct instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
Didn't anyone read what the nice chap from the National Transportation Security Center (part of Homeland Security) said about derailing high-speed trains?

http://www.masstransitmag.com/articl...-commuter-rail
Yes, as Restless posted, having stronger couplers greatly reduces the chance of jackknifing.

I would also like to point out that jackknifing also depends on the length and weight distribution of the train itself: freight trains are long and have variable weight distribution among cars, this imbalance means lighter (or empty) cars will be propelled easily by the heavier cars. Even in the pictures from Amtrak, there is still a weight distribution in that they still utilize the traditional power setup (engine+trailers) instead of the new multiple unit setup.

In the case of high speed trains, most trainsets are incredibly light, having most of their momentum attributed to speed rather than weight. When such trains derail at high speed, and assuming there are no obstructions, their forward inertia will be preserved. The rear of the train, weighing fairly little and travelling at more or less the same speed, will generally lack the power to jackknife, as such an action requires a large concentration of force, and with the forward body still moving, albeit derailed, the entire train will continue to slide down the guideway until it coems to a complete stop.


Back to China, I heard that the Harbin-Dalian line opens today, and according to the MOR, the trains will run at reduced speed (200kmh) during the winter. What kind of dangers are associated with operating in (extremely) cold weather?

These are the only ones I can think of

- Freezing of liquid components (lubricants)
- Forming of ice crystals near moving parts
- Ice/snow clogging critical vents or shorting out electrical systems
- Rail breaks
- Moisture penetration into the concrete (when it freezes, it expands, weakening the structure integrity).
- aircon failure
- Ice accumulation on the catenary/electrical pickup problems?
- Trackside transformer issues?
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Old November 24th, 2012, 12:36 PM   #4902
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China's high-latitude high-speed rail ready for service

BEIJING, Nov. 24 (Xinhua) -- A high-speed rail line linking northeastern Chinese city of Harbin and port city of Dalian will start service on Dec. 1, according to the Ministry of Railways. With a speed of 350 km per hour, the 921-kilometer railway is the world's first long high-speed line running through high-latitude regions with extremely low temperatures during the winter season, according to the ministry. It is expected to cut travelling times between the two cities to about four hours from nine hours. The line will go through the country's three northeastern provinces -- Heilongjiang, Jilin, Liaoning. There will be 23 stops along the route, including that at the renowned industrial base Shenyang city, according to the ministry. Due to safety concerns in relation to the climate, railway authorities have decided to adopt two different schedules. The speed during the winter season (Dec. 1 to March 31) will be 200 km per hour, with the summer period (April 1 to Nov. 30) being 300 km per hour. The ministry said ticket prices will also vary depending on the schedule. Harbin West, the line's originating station, has been designed with a combined passenger capacity of 7,000 passengers per hour at peak times. http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/ch..._131996373.htm
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Old November 24th, 2012, 12:46 PM   #4903
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Originally Posted by John66 View Post
BEIJING, Nov. 24 (Xinhua) -- A high-speed rail line linking northeastern Chinese city of Harbin and port city of Dalian will start service on Dec. 1, according to the Ministry of Railways. With a speed of 350 km per hour, the 921-kilometer railway is the world's first long high-speed line running through high-latitude regions with extremely low temperatures during the winter season, according to the ministry. It is expected to cut travelling times between the two cities to about four hours from nine hours. The line will go through the country's three northeastern provinces -- Heilongjiang, Jilin, Liaoning. There will be 23 stops along the route, including that at the renowned industrial base Shenyang city, according to the ministry. Due to safety concerns in relation to the climate, railway authorities have decided to adopt two different schedules. The speed during the winter season (Dec. 1 to March 31) will be 200 km per hour, with the summer period (April 1 to Nov. 30) being 300 km per hour. The ministry said ticket prices will also vary depending on the schedule. Harbin West, the line's originating station, has been designed with a combined passenger capacity of 7,000 passengers per hour at peak times. http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/ch..._131996373.htm
Feels like I've been scammed.
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Old November 24th, 2012, 12:53 PM   #4904
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Fast rail to Beijing to open in Dec.

THE hotly anticipated Beijing-Shenzhen high-speed rail line is expected to open by the end of the year, though an exact date for test runs is not yet known.

The rail line will reduce train trips between Shenzhen and Beijing from 24 hours to nine.

Trials on the final section, between Beijing and Shijiazhuang in Hebei Province, began in mid-September, meaning tests for the entire 2,210-kilometer line could begin by Dec. 20, according to some Chinese-language reports.

Regional railway operators said Thursday that they weren't able to talk about schedules for the whole line. But Ministry of Railways officials confirmed that the Beijing-Shenzhen line will open before Jan. 1.

The 294-billion-yuan (US$46.7 billion) railway will connect 28 cities in Hebei, Henan, Hubei, Hunan and Guangdong provinces.

It will terminate in Hong Kong after the Shenzhen-Hong Kong section opens in 2015.

The Beijing-Shenzhen high-speed line includes four sections: Beijing to Shijiazhuang, Shijiazhuang to Wuhan, Wuhan to Guangzhou and Guangzhou to Shenzhen.

Trial runs between Guangzhou and Beijing could start late next month, reducing train travel between those two cities to eight hours.

A second-class ticket from Shenzhen to Beijing is expected to cost about 1,060 yuan, as the 1,069-kilometer trip from Guangzhou to Wuhan costs 465 yuan, or 0.435 yuan per kilometer.

That price would be 500 yuan more than a present hard-sleeper ticket, and 300 yuan more than a soft-sleeper ticket. Airfare between Shenzhen and Beijing can be as cheap as 700 yuan in off-peak seasons, but fares and associated fees can reach 1,950 yuan for the three-hour flight in peak seasons.

"It would be nice if the rail price was fixed at 700 yuan. Then the high-speed rail could compete with flights. Otherwise, I will still choose flights,"said a man surnamed Lin, who came to Shenzhen from Jilin in northeastern China.

Lin said he flies from Shenzhen to Beijing every Spring Festival, because it's hard to get a train ticket, and then takes a train to his hometown. The entire trip usually costs him more than 2,000 yuan.



http://english.sz.gov.cn/ln/201211/t...23_2072392.htm
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Old November 24th, 2012, 01:09 PM   #4905
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John66 View Post
BEIJING, Nov. 24 (Xinhua) -- A high-speed rail line linking northeastern Chinese city of Harbin and port city of Dalian will start service on Dec. 1, according to the Ministry of Railways. With a speed of 350 km per hour, the 921-kilometer railway is the world's first long high-speed line running through high-latitude regions with extremely low temperatures during the winter season, according to the ministry. It is expected to cut travelling times between the two cities to about four hours from nine hours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John66 View Post
The speed during the winter season (Dec. 1 to March 31) will be 200 km per hour, with the summer period (April 1 to Nov. 30) being 300 km per hour.
Shall the travelling time be about 4 hours at 300 km/h or at 200 km/h?
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Old November 24th, 2012, 01:12 PM   #4906
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dodge321 View Post
Feels like I've been scammed.
If they don't lower the ticket prices for 200 km/h service, then yes .
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Old November 24th, 2012, 01:42 PM   #4907
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John66 View Post

The rail line will reduce train trips between Shenzhen and Beijing from 24 hours to nine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John66 View Post
Trial runs between Guangzhou and Beijing could start late next month, reducing train travel between those two cities to eight hours.

A second-class ticket from Shenzhen to Beijing is expected to cost about 1,060 yuan, as the 1,069-kilometer trip from Guangzhou to Wuhan costs 465 yuan, or 0.435 yuan per kilometer.

That price would be 500 yuan more than a present hard-sleeper ticket, and 300 yuan more than a soft-sleeper ticket. Airfare between Shenzhen and Beijing can be as cheap as 700 yuan in off-peak seasons, but fares and associated fees can reach 1,950 yuan for the three-hour flight in peak seasons.

"It would be nice if the rail price was fixed at 700 yuan. Then the high-speed rail could compete with flights. Otherwise, I will still choose flights,"said a man surnamed Lin, who came to Shenzhen from Jilin in northeastern China.

Lin said he flies from Shenzhen to Beijing every Spring Festival, because it's hard to get a train ticket, and then takes a train to his hometown. The entire trip usually costs him more than 2,000 yuan.

http://english.sz.gov.cn/ln/201211/t...23_2072392.htm
At present, there are 2 daily trains Shenzhen-Beijing. One (T108) takes 23:48, the second (K106) takes 1:05:24.
Both go via Nanchang, cost RMB257 in hard seat, RMB467 in hard sleeper and RMB720 in soft sleeper.

Regarding those 700 yuan tickets...
There are 2 daily D trains (D2102 and D2104) between Guangzhou and Wuhan. These take 6:40 and 7:14. They cost RMB330 in second class, RMB530 in first class, and RMB595 in VIP class.

There are now no D trains between Guangzhou South and Shenzhen, nor between Wuhan and Zhengzhou.

If a D train were to run all the way Shenzhen-Beijing, how long would it take? And what would the second class price be?
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Old November 24th, 2012, 02:19 PM   #4908
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Shanghai needs high-speed railway between airports:
http://www.shanghaidaily.com/nsp/Met...ports%2Burged/
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Old November 24th, 2012, 04:50 PM   #4909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack
Shanghai needs high-speed railway between airports:
http://www.shanghaidaily.com/nsp/Met...ports%2Burged/
What are they talking about? Maglev line is half built and needs to be extended to Hongqiao. There even are platforms built and waiting for Maglev in Hongqiao. Or is that what they mean by 'high speed railway' between airports?
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Old November 24th, 2012, 06:00 PM   #4910
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
What are they talking about? Maglev line is half built and needs to be extended to Hongqiao. There even are platforms built and waiting for Maglev in Hongqiao. Or is that what they mean by 'high speed railway' between airports?
I hope that's what they mean... its the only thing that makes sense. Have the Maglev go underground at Longyang, and from there go to Hongqiao.

If they go deep underground, they can just let 2 or 4 TBM's bore away without much hassle. They should have a station at Liajiazui and People's Square, and perhaps also one at a station like either Zhongshan Park or Hongqiao Road, but no more than that. The travel time between Hongqiao and Pudong would only be about 20 minutes.
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Old November 24th, 2012, 06:05 PM   #4911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Shanghai needs high-speed railway between airports:
http://www.shanghaidaily.com/nsp/Met...ports%2Burged/
I'm very interested in another quote from that news item:

"Officials also said yesterday that three new high-speed railways are awaiting approval. If given the green light, the routes will provide fast train services to Hong Kong, Shenzhen, Chengdu and Kunming."

What three new high-speed railways awaiting approval are they talking of? Will there be a different Shanghai-Hong Kong route besides the (200-250 km/h) coastal route already finishing construction?

And what about the Shanghai-Chengdu line they speak of? Is this finally a 350 km/h line between Shanghai-Chongqing-Chengdu, instead of the 200-250 km/h line they are building now?
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Old November 24th, 2012, 06:17 PM   #4912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post

"Officials also said yesterday that three new high-speed railways are awaiting approval. If given the green light, the routes will provide fast train services to Hong Kong, Shenzhen, Chengdu and Kunming."

What three new high-speed railways awaiting approval are they talking of? Will there be a different Shanghai-Hong Kong route besides the (200-250 km/h) coastal route already finishing construction?
There are plans for Hangzhou-Changsha-Kunming.
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Old November 24th, 2012, 07:01 PM   #4913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
There are plans for Hangzhou-Changsha-Kunming.
That's the one I already know about, because it is part of the 4+4 PDL plan:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:4%...h_version).png
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Old November 25th, 2012, 03:06 AM   #4914
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
There are plans for Hangzhou-Changsha-Kunming.
I thought, they already are building it....
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Old November 25th, 2012, 08:09 AM   #4915
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11.25 Beijing-Zhengzhou HSR on trial run

Length: 681km
Design speed: 350km/h

The 2200km Beijing-Guangzhou HSR will open in December.







--xinhuanet
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Old November 25th, 2012, 04:09 PM   #4916
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Shenzhen Futian High-speed Railway Station (underground)
by 1788111

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Old November 25th, 2012, 06:19 PM   #4917
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
11.25 Beijing-Zhengzhou HSR on trial run

Length: 681km
Design speed: 350km/h

The 2200km Beijing-Guangzhou HSR will open in December.
2200km with 350km/h standards...

Majestic achievement.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 07:17 PM   #4918
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2200km with 350km/h standards...

Majestic achievement.
Xian-Shenzhen is only about 100 km shorter.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 07:48 PM   #4919
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Beijing-Guangzhou train to take much less time

BEIJING, Nov. 25 (Xinhua) -- The high-speed rail route from Beijing to the southern Chinese city of Guangzhou will open next month, cutting the 2,200-km journey time by 14 hours, according to the Ministry of Railways.

A trial operation along the Beijing-Zhengzhou section, the last part of the route, began on Sunday morning.

The operation will test facilities, train staff and enhance the crew's emergency response capabilities, according to the ministry.

The Wuhan-Guangzhou part of the high-speed route has been operating since December 2009 and the Zhengzhou-Wuhan section began functioning in September this year.

The entire journey time between Beijing and Guangzhou will be cut to eight hours from 22 hours.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 07:53 PM   #4920
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Beijing-Guangzhou train to take much less time

BEIJING, Nov. 25 (Xinhua)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
The Wuhan-Guangzhou part of the high-speed route has been operating since December 2009 and the Zhengzhou-Wuhan section began functioning in September this year.

The entire journey time between Beijing and Guangzhou will be cut to eight hours from 22 hours.
Zhengzhou-Guangzhou takes no less than 6:11 (G831). How long shall Beijing-Zhengzhou take?

Last edited by chornedsnorkack; November 25th, 2012 at 09:33 PM.
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