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Old January 6th, 2013, 11:24 AM   #5261
Bannor
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Originally Posted by urbanfan89 View Post
In parts of Europe and Japan, low cost airlines have won back market share from high speed trains through ultra-low fares. The Chinese government does not permit a RyanAir in China, and I wonder whether the high speed rail network will further discourage them from deregulating the airline sector.
I think it is a matter of time. Not to mention a matter of return on initial rail investments.

- The population of China is so big, and the infrastructure bottlenecks are so tight right now that prices can be set high.
- Boeing and Airbus are not producing (new low carbon) planes fast enough, and the domestic alternative still has 5 years to go technology wise and scale wise.
- Rail also pollutes less (don't start with noise pollution now. thats not pollution).
- Electricity cost will also come down in price in China(my assumption tells me there will be a solar breakthrough soon with nanotech involved), while there is a finite amount of oil used for airtravel (more or less.. we can allways make more oil.. just not as fast as we use it). So it is a long term strategy.
- Before the rail and air sector in China is deregulated more, the investors in rail need to get their money back from the investments. That will take some years.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 12:08 PM   #5262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bannor View Post
- Electricity cost will also come down in price in China(my assumption tells me there will be a solar breakthrough soon with nanotech involved), while there is a finite amount of oil used for airtravel (more or less.. we can allways make more oil.. just not as fast as we use it). So it is a long term strategy.
That's one possibility, the other is a LFTR or similar that can be deployed in 500MW units to replace the many small coal fired plants throughout the country.

These reactors run at higher temps, are more thermodynamically efficient, and could have as part of the plant attached a Fischer-Tropsch reactor. This would allow great heat transfer efficiency as well as the synthetic production of hydrocarbons.

LFTRs produce process heat at about 650C and the Fischer-Tropsch reaction requires heat in the 300-350C range. As such a combined plant that does both, without first going to electricity (and suffering the loss of efficiency involved in doing so) is quite practical, with the remaining heat used for electrical generation. Envision a plant that produces both electricity and liquid hydrocarbons for cars and trucks.

China is working on everything possible to maximize future success.

Since the local govs like to compete I can easily see a scenario where everyone rushes out to get their own LFTR with a F-T attached and soon the price of electricity and fuel plummets in China, which then begins to export electricity and oil.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 01:05 PM   #5263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanfan89 View Post
In parts of Europe and Japan, low cost airlines have won back market share from high speed trains through ultra-low fares. The Chinese government does not permit a RyanAir in China, and I wonder whether the high speed rail network will further discourage them from deregulating the airline sector.
Something similar but just as 'cheap' ( Spring Airlines ) ...

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Old January 6th, 2013, 03:28 PM   #5264
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Something similar but just as 'cheap' ( Spring Airlines ) ...
Seat pitch is 29" or 73.7cm.

I literally cannot fit in to such a space. The bones in my legs and hips are longer than this when seated and cushions and tray tables are included.

This is not 'uncomfortable' this is 'not possible' for someone 1.92 m in height.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 03:30 PM   #5265
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Wow.

I was looking at a map and noticed the Strait of Taiwan. 70m deep.

That could be a tunnel.
It's been an on-again-off-again proposal for some time...Certainly, you can imagine why some people on the island are reluctant (even if it DOES make a lot of sense - in terms of opening up Taiwan's labor market...).
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Old January 6th, 2013, 03:54 PM   #5266
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It's been an on-again-off-again proposal for some time...Certainly, you can imagine why some people on the island are reluctant (even if it DOES make a lot of sense - in terms of opening up Taiwan's labor market...).
Of course. Still I do not think any nation other than China could envision and execute such a project.

Many things would have to change in the world first before this were to occur.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 03:58 PM   #5267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Wow.

I was looking at a map and noticed the Strait of Taiwan. 70m deep.

That could be a tunnel.
It is also too wide.

Are there any updates about Qiongzhou Strait crossing plans?
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Old January 6th, 2013, 06:53 PM   #5268
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Depends on what you compare it with. If you look at Europe and compare it to Ryanair's airtravel fares, this is still extremely expensive. I fly from Oslo to Berlin next week for 11 euro(!)
Only hand baggage included though.
Well, I meant the train fare. It's not always fair to put airfare against train fare as if they were on parity, because the cost structures are just different. Right?

Seems that for airlines, the biggest cost is transporting people -because there's only so much they can carry (which is why they want to maximize the number of passengers and minimize luggage) but the fuel is the same irregardless. Whereas, for railways (given that they are electrified) the biggest cost for them is maintenance - signals & equipment and rolling stock - not "fuel" .

Not to drone on, but I'm still kind of at a loss how to go about figuring out what is a realistic baseline of operating such a HSR line.

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Still I do not think any nation other than China could envision and execute such a project.

Many things would have to change in the world first before this were to occur.
Why is that?
How so?

Last edited by phoenixboi08; January 6th, 2013 at 07:01 PM.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 07:58 PM   #5269
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Why is that?
The nations with the talent to do this lack the political will or will back off due to environmental or other concerns. Northern Europe.

or they are broke and cannot decide upon anything. The USA.

or they have no need for this.

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How so?
Taiwan and the USA would likely consider such a tunnel a security risk or an act of aggression. Until the PRC can call the shots and not have Taipei or DC freak out, I do not think a tunnel would be constructed.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 08:19 PM   #5270
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I think it would be on the margins of technical feasibility. Plus, vanity aside, there is no real need for such a project.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 01:25 AM   #5271
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Whereas, for railways (given that they are electrified) the biggest cost for them is maintenance - signals & equipment and rolling stock - not "fuel" .
Yes, I agree on the part of the initial investments. That is what we need to wait for to be paid for. The maintainance cost will be interesting though. I do hope they used the right type of concrete at least. Those news we had last year were a bit disturbing. And do we know how they fixed that? It was on a few lines I believe. Besides, I just read an article about chinese engineers lacking the proper experience on maintainance especially on bridges and tunnels. Hence they were looking to europe for expertice in that sector. I guess the results on the cost of this will really decide the price of a ticket 10 years from now. But one thing is certain. Both air and train travel cost will keep falling. And USA is not the country you want to compare with. Europe is more like it. And still there is improvements in technology comming too. Completely automatic signaling systems with driverless trains are viable in the short to mid term. For airtravel, I've read alot about prototypes of planes comming in 40 years where fuel use is reduced by another 50% from todays most advanced new planes (that is 3 generations into the future). And plane maintainance will also come down in price if the industry want to consolidate and start using industry standards on equipment. So prices have a long way to go. Most of the price even in europe is now nothing but taxes. Taxes on everything. Tax money that should have gone into new investments.. But where do they end up? Unemployment benefits and pensions. The system is self destructive once you reach "industrialization"...

Last edited by Bannor; January 7th, 2013 at 01:31 AM.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 04:43 AM   #5272
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I guess the angle I'm getting at is how much can you reduce the cost of transporting passengers? Because I doubt very little of that fare is for the "fuel" but rather goes towards maintenance (equipment, rolling stocks, etc) and some administrative stuff (purchasing food, salaries, etc). I'm just wondering how much of a difference it'd make to have the electricity used come primarily from solar/natural gas, say? Or, funny you mentioned driverless trains, significantly reduced staff?

Ultimately, I really just want to know if anyone has detailed enough info that could give a cost breakdown or point me to where I could locate something like that.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 05:07 AM   #5273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zjl625 View Post
Beijing-Guangzhou HSR by 罗春晓 source


November 19th, 2012. Beijing.
Is Beijing West a terminal or through station?
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Old January 7th, 2013, 09:22 AM   #5274
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Is Beijing West a terminal or through station?
It is both. It is the terminal station for most trains but a few do
go through it like the Shijiazhuang to Qinhuangdao T train.

Laojang
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Old January 7th, 2013, 10:46 AM   #5275
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Because I doubt very little of that fare is for the "fuel"
Yes, but I was comparing it to planes where fuel does add some cost.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 11:32 AM   #5276
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Given the current cross-straight attitudes, any Taiwan president who agrees to this rail link will be immediately ousted from power.

Before such a close infrastructural integration can be even considered feasible, cultural integration (or at least acceptance) must first exist.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 03:53 PM   #5277
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Originally Posted by Silver Swordsman View Post
Given the current cross-straight attitudes, any Taiwan president who agrees to this rail link will be immediately ousted from power.

Before such a close infrastructural integration can be even considered feasible, cultural integration (or at least acceptance) must first exist.
Well...I think the opportunity to have access to the Fujian jobs market would be a strong counter balance to that opposition.
They're already "linked," I think protest against such a connection would be symbolic at most as building a tunnel/bridge really doesn't do much to alter the status quo.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 06:05 PM   #5278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laojang View Post
It is both. It is the terminal station for most trains but a few do
go through it like the Shijiazhuang to Qinhuangdao T train.

Laojang
I just looked at the map, satellite images. It looks like the tracks end at the station in the picture but in reality tracks go through the station to more destinations.
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Old January 8th, 2013, 04:16 AM   #5279
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First high speed train runs in Guangxi.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/hqcj/zx...t_7971770.html
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Old January 8th, 2013, 09:10 AM   #5280
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First high speed train runs in Guangxi.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/hqcj/zx...t_7971770.html
Which railway line is this?
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