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Old January 12th, 2013, 06:53 AM   #5321
China Hand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
76km/h? What is that about? Do you mean 120-160km/h non-hispeed lines?
That is the average speed of a Knnn or Nnnn train from point to point.

SLOW.

http://www.chinatrainguide.com/xian-...guangzhou.html

K1295/K1298

01:55 Xian Shaanxi
08:27 Guangzhou

Time, distance, hard seat/soft, hard sleeper, soft sleeper
30h32m, 2176km, 243/- , 413/427/442, 645/674

2176 / 30.533= 71.26 kph avg speed.

1085 Xian Shaanxi
00:38 Urumqi
10:08 33h30m 2568
76.66 kph

K1354/K1351 Xian Shaanxi
02:18 Urumqi
12:00 33h42m 2568
76.20 koh

Last edited by China Hand; January 12th, 2013 at 07:10 AM.
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Old January 12th, 2013, 10:34 AM   #5322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
That is the average speed of a Knnn or Nnnn train from point to point.

SLOW.

http://www.chinatrainguide.com/xian-...guangzhou.html

K1295/K1298

01:55 Xian Shaanxi
08:27 Guangzhou

Time, distance, hard seat/soft, hard sleeper, soft sleeper
30h32m, 2176km, 243/- , 413/427/442, 645/674

2176 / 30.533= 71.26 kph avg speed.
You are comparing apples and oranges. Maximum speeds with average.
But let us compare average with average.

Tianjin-Beijing.

High speed trains include C trains. 120 km Tianjin to Beijing South. 33 minutes. Average speed 218 km/h.

Another high speed railway line has G trains. 122 km Tianjin South to Beijing South. Also 33 minutes. Average speed 222 km/h.

D trains are slower - slightly. D320 and D342 travel Tianjin South to Beijing South in just 36 minutes. Average speed 203 km/h.

Now have a look at the slow speed railways.
The fastest is Z81/Z80. 137 km Tianjin-Beijing.
Travel time 1:16 (4:37 to 5:53). Average speed 108 km/h.

But this is nonstop. Have a look at the one (sic!) train daily that offers service.

This is 6452.
Travel time 3:20 - sic!, 6:28 to 9:48.
Average speed is NOT 76 km/h.
It is 41 km/h.
And it still manages to serve just 8 stops in these 137 km.

And the main railway magistral across China, train 1462, the Shanghai-Beijing train, ALSO manages to somehow spend 3:18 (sic!, 7:22 to 10:40) on the 148 km Tianjin West-Beijing - despite making mere 2 intermediate stops. Average speed 45 km/h.

Compare say, Helsinki-Toijala.

It is NOT a new high speed railway. Most of the line was built by 1862, the rest by 1876. It is also in sparsely settled Finland. And it has to carry, and does carry, freight trains too. Most of the line is just two tracks.

147 km Helsinki-Toijala...
Milk runs cover the distance in 1:40. On 147 km, it means average speed 88 km/h.

And at 88 km/h, the train manages 11 intermediate stops.

7 milk run daily, at Finnish population density. (BTW, the stopping patterns and travel times are standard between these 7 milk runs).

Expresses take 1:24, meaning 105 km/h, with 4 intermediate stops. These expresses run also at a strict hourly schedule - 17 trains daily. AND while they all go to Tampere, most of them continue beyond - to different destinations.

Last edited by chornedsnorkack; January 12th, 2013 at 10:51 AM.
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Old January 12th, 2013, 12:28 PM   #5323
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Why are we comparing with Finland, now? It's hardly a secret that before the current building/improvement boom Chinese rail was well below world standard.
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Old January 12th, 2013, 01:17 PM   #5324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Why are we comparing with Finland, now? It's hardly a secret that before the current building/improvement boom Chinese rail was well below world standard.
Except that Chinese old rail transported the mass in the billions throughout the years and was always better quality than Switzerland's. It's a fact.
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Old January 12th, 2013, 01:21 PM   #5325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -TDN- View Post
was always better quality than Switzerland's. It's a fact.
Is that supposed to be funny?
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Old January 12th, 2013, 01:23 PM   #5326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -TDN- View Post
Except that Chinese old rail transported the mass in the billions throughout the years and was always better quality than Switzerland's. It's a fact.
Eh?
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Old January 12th, 2013, 03:43 PM   #5327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
You are comparing apples and oranges. Maximum speeds with average.
But let us compare average with average.

Tianjin-Beijing.

High speed trains include C trains. 120 km Tianjin to Beijing South. 33 minutes. Average speed 218 km/h.

Another high speed railway line has G trains. 122 km Tianjin South to Beijing South. Also 33 minutes. Average speed 222 km/h.

D trains are slower - slightly. D320 and D342 travel Tianjin South to Beijing South in just 36 minutes. Average speed 203 km/h.
We are in agreement. Newer trains travel at 3 times, or greater, the average speeds of older trains. In many cases travel times are reduced by a factor of 6 !
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Old January 12th, 2013, 03:44 PM   #5328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -TDN- View Post
Except that Chinese old rail transported the mass in the billions throughout the years and was always better quality than Switzerland's. It's a fact.
Chinese nationalists. They are even worse than the Americans.
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Old January 12th, 2013, 10:02 PM   #5329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post

Chinese nationalists. They are even worse than the Americans.
They're not that bad. In fact they're harmless but at the same time are very funny.
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Old January 12th, 2013, 10:34 PM   #5330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
They're not that bad. In fact they're harmless but at the same time are very funny.
Sorry, I am confused with this discussion. Are we talking pre or post 1949 here when we reference to " Chinese nationalists"
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Old January 12th, 2013, 11:26 PM   #5331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoneybee View Post
Sorry, I am confused with this discussion. Are we talking pre or post 1949 here when we reference to " Chinese nationalists"
I mean the post 1949 ones
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Old January 13th, 2013, 03:25 AM   #5332
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"Back to topic"

In regarding to the z-series upgrade to 200 km/h, it has already been started. That is why china had 12,000 km of high speed rail before it mysteriously dropped to about 7000 km. Some trains of the z-series was downgraded to 160 km/h from 200 km/h.

Thanks for the 18,000/40,000 km explanation

Hope china makes the length of its high speed rail more transparent.
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Old January 13th, 2013, 03:47 AM   #5333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kw0943 View Post
Regarding to 2015, some sources say a 40000 km network while some say a 18000 km network. What is the exact measures used by both. My guess is
18000 (Includes only 300-350 km trains and 200-250 km trains)
40000 (Also includes z-trains, trains that has been lowered to 160 kmh from 200 kmh from wenzhou)
There is a good article in IRJ which, among many other things, mentions the length of the network by 2015


China’s high-speed programme back on track
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...-on-track.html

Quote:
According to MOR, the length of high-speed lines with a design speed of 300-350km/h will be 6700km and that with a design speed of 200-250km/h will be 11,300km by 2015.
If we go by the wording of this article this means that the HSR network (200-350/380km/h) will be in total 18 000km long (it needs clarification regarding the new/upgraded 200km/h lines but I guess this is not very important). Therefore the 18K figure seems clear.


I have no idea what the 40 000km figure represents. But I did some web searches and the 40 000km is mentioned rather often albeit with no clarification what exactly it means. Could it be the total length of new railways to get built during 2011-2015?

And personally I believe the best practice would be to only count 250km/h+ lines when measuring the total length of the HSR network. Just to avoid any misunderstandings and discussions what the HSR definition is and similar bullshit.

Last edited by Pansori; January 13th, 2013 at 04:04 AM.
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Old January 13th, 2013, 05:51 AM   #5334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Is that supposed to be funny?
It' not to be funny. Just to show that anyone can make ignorant assumption.
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Old January 13th, 2013, 06:52 AM   #5335
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A video with some nice footage.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/Rwip6L8UCfA
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Old January 13th, 2013, 08:24 AM   #5336
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Just for the record. The speed of passenger trains in many old lines in China is restricted mainly by the traffic rather than the technical conditions of the tracks or the trains. Many of the K and N trains must yield to T, K and other K trains. They have to stop in the stations for long time. There are K trains
which average around 30 km/h on sections of tracks near Tianjin, like the
new K train from Changchun to Kunming.
Technically the tracks can comodate 200km/h D trains, and 160km/h Z trains from Beijing to Shanghaibefore they were terminated.

Laojang


Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
You are comparing apples and oranges. Maximum speeds with average.
But let us compare average with average.

Tianjin-Beijing.

High speed trains include C trains. 120 km Tianjin to Beijing South. 33 minutes. Average speed 218 km/h.

Another high speed railway line has G trains. 122 km Tianjin South to Beijing South. Also 33 minutes. Average speed 222 km/h.

D trains are slower - slightly. D320 and D342 travel Tianjin South to Beijing South in just 36 minutes. Average speed 203 km/h.

Now have a look at the slow speed railways.
The fastest is Z81/Z80. 137 km Tianjin-Beijing.
Travel time 1:16 (4:37 to 5:53). Average speed 108 km/h.

But this is nonstop. Have a look at the one (sic!) train daily that offers service.

This is 6452.
Travel time 3:20 - sic!, 6:28 to 9:48.
Average speed is NOT 76 km/h.
It is 41 km/h.
And it still manages to serve just 8 stops in these 137 km.

And the main railway magistral across China, train 1462, the Shanghai-Beijing train, ALSO manages to somehow spend 3:18 (sic!, 7:22 to 10:40) on the 148 km Tianjin West-Beijing - despite making mere 2 intermediate stops. Average speed 45 km/h.

Compare say, Helsinki-Toijala.

It is NOT a new high speed railway. Most of the line was built by 1862, the rest by 1876. It is also in sparsely settled Finland. And it has to carry, and does carry, freight trains too. Most of the line is just two tracks.

147 km Helsinki-Toijala...
Milk runs cover the distance in 1:40. On 147 km, it means average speed 88 km/h.

And at 88 km/h, the train manages 11 intermediate stops.

7 milk run daily, at Finnish population density. (BTW, the stopping patterns and travel times are standard between these 7 milk runs).

Expresses take 1:24, meaning 105 km/h, with 4 intermediate stops. These expresses run also at a strict hourly schedule - 17 trains daily. AND while they all go to Tampere, most of them continue beyond - to different destinations.
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Old January 13th, 2013, 10:45 AM   #5337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
If we go by the wording of this article this means that the HSR network (200-350/380km/h) will be in total 18 000km long (it needs clarification regarding the new/upgraded 200km/h lines but I guess this is not very important). Therefore the 18K figure seems clear.
Letīs sum up the existing state.

350 km/h railways open by 2013:
Harbin-Shenyang-Dalian - unknown whether 200 or 350 km/h, length 904 km
Beijing-Shanghai - 1302 km
Bengbu-Hefei - 131 km
Beijing-Longhua - 2206 km
Zhengzhou-Xian - 455 km
Shanghai-Nanjing - 301 km
Shanghai-Hangzhou - 150 km
Beijing-Tianjin - 115 km

Total - 4660 km plus arguably the 904 km Harbin-Dalian would be 5564 km.

This leaves 1136 km railways of 300...350 km/h by 2015.

Which lines?
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Old January 13th, 2013, 11:58 AM   #5338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Letīs sum up the existing state.

350 km/h railways open by 2013:
Harbin-Shenyang-Dalian - unknown whether 200 or 350 km/h, length 904 km
Beijing-Shanghai - 1302 km
Bengbu-Hefei - 131 km
Beijing-Longhua - 2206 km
Zhengzhou-Xian - 455 km
Shanghai-Nanjing - 301 km
Shanghai-Hangzhou - 150 km
Beijing-Tianjin - 115 km

Total - 4660 km plus arguably the 904 km Harbin-Dalian would be 5564 km.

This leaves 1136 km railways of 300...350 km/h by 2015.

Which lines?
Harbin-Dalian is a 350km/h HSR.

The following 300-350 G train lines are suppose to open before 2015, please feel free to add if I have missed anything.

Nanjing-Hangzhou 249km
Hangzhou-Ningbo 150km
Panjin-Yingkou 89km
Tianjin-Qinghuangdao 261km
Xian-Baoji 148km
Chongqing-Wanzhou Intercity 239km

Total 1136km

Hangzhou-Changsha 921km but I'm not sure it will be finished before 2015, but at least the section in Jiangxi Province is set to open in 2014, the rest of the line should be completed within 2015.

Also could potentially add Harbin-Qiqihar PDL 286km (250km with option to upgrade to 300km/h)
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Old January 13th, 2013, 01:21 PM   #5339
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Could the 40000km come from counting the track rather than lines? Wouldn't be the first time I've seen that done.
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Old January 13th, 2013, 01:46 PM   #5340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
Could the 40000km come from counting the track rather than lines? Wouldn't be the first time I've seen that done.
That's what I though. Since all HSR lines have at least double tracks you instantly get 36000km. That would be a bit stupid though.
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