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Old April 4th, 2013, 08:08 AM   #5661
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Old April 4th, 2013, 11:30 AM   #5662
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Spain uses fixed gauge trainsets alongside variable gauge ones, because fixed gauge trains are cheaper where the route stays on single gauge.
A little bit but that's not the real reason, they use fixed gauge trains too because they are faster.

The variable gauge system requires a space of the axels that in fixed gauge trains is occupied by bake disks. That means that a fixed gauge trains has more brake disks than a variable gauge one. So with the same chassis a fixed gauge train could currently be certified for 350 km/h, while a variable gauge one could be certified for 250 km/h.

There are plans to increase speed in variable gauge trains, but in fixed gauge trains too, so they will be faster still.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 12:25 PM   #5663
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A little bit but that's not the real reason, they use fixed gauge trains too because they are faster.

The variable gauge system requires a space of the axels that in fixed gauge trains is occupied by bake disks. That means that a fixed gauge trains has more brake disks than a variable gauge one. So with the same chassis a fixed gauge train could currently be certified for 350 km/h, while a variable gauge one could be certified for 250 km/h.

There are plans to increase speed in variable gauge trains, but in fixed gauge trains too, so they will be faster still.
They cannot do so if the tracks are only good for 250 km/h - on a railway certified for 250 km/h, the trains designed and certified for 350 km/h are no faster than the trains designed and certified for 250 km/h.

That assuming we are not dealing with tilting trains which are slightly faster than upright trains on the same tracks.

Also, the average speed of high speed trains is slightly faster on the same tracks because their powerful engines allow them after a stop or slowdown to accelerate faster to the same top speed.

But they pay for it somewhere. The weight of the powerful engines increases the power consumption at a given speed - the low speed trains can be made lighter and therefore more efficient - and also the powerful engines will be losing efficiency when they are being operated far below their design loads.

China does run some G trains on 200 km/h lines. For example, the 4 G trains Shanghai-Qingdao cover 1308 km - 6 km longer than Shanghai-Beijing - and the fastest, G222, takes 6:25, compared to 4:48 to Beijing. Because the 393 km distance Jinan-Qingdao is on a 200 km/h railway, and takes 2:34.

Also, some of the trains from Beijing to Taiyuan are G trains although Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan is a 200 km/h railway, and all trains from Zhengzhou (G626), Wuhan (G632 and G636) and Guangzhou (G622) are.

But there are conspicuously missing services, too. Although Hefei-Nanjing 200 km/h high speed railway is used by several G trains from Nanjing, Shanghai and Hangzhou to Hefei, no G trains run on Hefei-Wuhan 200 km/h high speed railway. Shanghai-Wuhan and Nanjing-Wuhan only have D services. And Changsha-Hefei and Zhengzhou-Hefei have no high speed services at all.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 12:36 PM   #5664
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Quote:
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And for completion, here is the map for East Asia:

But for West Asia, South Asia, North Asia, South-East Asia there isn't anything yet.
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Which is obviously wrong in many ways in China.
Anyone interested in keeping this map updated?
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Old April 4th, 2013, 03:57 PM   #5665
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I'm interested in updating it although at a glance the only line I know is missing is the harbin-dalian PDL.
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Old April 5th, 2013, 06:13 AM   #5666
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It's also missing lots of non-high speed rail lines see below

Last edited by luhai; April 5th, 2013 at 06:13 AM. Reason: smaller pic
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Old April 5th, 2013, 10:52 AM   #5667
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It also misses most low-speed lines of Japan. Possibly it does not attempt to be complete on that part.
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Old April 5th, 2013, 02:11 PM   #5668
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The East Asian map tries to be consistent with the European map. The European map doesn't try to include all low-speed rail either, which would just mess up the picture. It only shows the "connecting" low-speed lines between the high-speed line. It would, I assume, always be a little contentious which lines that would be, but they are not in any case the focus of those maps.

I am not sure if the maps have gone through a rigorous quality control. I believe there is some inconsistency in the colouring of the lines. It would make sense to use actual operational speed, which is why many Chinese lines currently are a little slower-coloured. But the newly built Bothnia line in Sweden is coloured 250 km/h, the design speed, even though I believe the current trains are not even up to 200 km/h on that line. Making consistent use definitions will take some coordination.
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Old April 5th, 2013, 02:28 PM   #5669
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Oh, yes for those of you who are from the future (Hello future SSCers!...), that is people who read this thread at a later date, much of what is said here may be confusing to you. What people are writing about these maps may not fit with what you see.

These two maps are live. When people say that the Dalian-Harbin is not on the map as finished it probably will be for you, assuming that somebody has updated the map in the mean time. You can go to a specific version, like January 9, 2013 if you want.

Also, the Europan map has been discussed and updated in this thread.
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Old April 6th, 2013, 10:37 AM   #5670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
I'm only aware of 2 designs with a handful of trains to be delivered with Russian Gauge.
Then something's wrong with your awareness.

Most rolling stock manufacturers have delivered trains based on UIC gauge designs adapted for the Russian gauge. Don't forget that Russian Gauge is also used in Finland. Have a look what runs there...
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Old April 6th, 2013, 07:19 PM   #5671
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Returning to the topic of China, China is also producing and exporting 1520 mm "bullet trains" - to Georgia first:
http://www.china.org.cn/business/201...t_25524902.htm
Does Russia also want to import any high speed trains from China?
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Old April 6th, 2013, 07:56 PM   #5672
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Those trains in Georgia are normal 120 km/h trains. - nothing "bullet" about them.

Any significant deals in Russia almost certainly will have to include mostly local assembly plus some technology transfer. I believe there have been some such deals with West European manufacturers. Do you think Chinese would be interested in such an arrangement as well?
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Old April 6th, 2013, 08:43 PM   #5673
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Concerning the obvious errors on the maps:

There IS a 200 km/h railway Dalian-Shenyang-Harbin - NOT 300 km/h before 21st instant - and a 200 km/h railway Shenyang-Qinhuangdao.

But there is no 200 km/h railway either Qinhuangdao-Beijing or Qinhuangdao-Tianjin, for now.
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Old April 7th, 2013, 12:27 AM   #5674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Then something's wrong with your awareness.

Most rolling stock manufacturers have delivered trains based on UIC gauge designs adapted for the Russian gauge. Don't forget that Russian Gauge is also used in Finland. Have a look what runs there...
Do tell. Which rolling stock manufacturers apart from Siemens and Talgo have delivered designs to Russian gauge?

And are you saying there is real high speed rail in Finland?
Note that the Pendolino is not really HSR, and they don't have a good reputation in Finland nor in China.
But China has a much larger choice of standard gauge HSR designs to pick from, unlike Finland.
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Old April 7th, 2013, 12:41 AM   #5675
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Those trains in Georgia are normal 120 km/h trains. - nothing "bullet" about them.

Any significant deals in Russia almost certainly will have to include mostly local assembly plus some technology transfer. I believe there have been some such deals with West European manufacturers. Do you think Chinese would be interested in such an arrangement as well?
The Chinese railway build out is starting to taper off now, so there will be a lot of spare capacity in terms of train production and track construction. So they'd be open to local assembly and tech transfer.

But note that the 8x Siemens Velaros delivered to Russia were all produced and assembled in Germany. So I doubt if there any much technology transfer, if any.
I also recall thinking that the Velaros sold to Russia were way more expensive than the ones produced in China.

Last edited by Restless; April 7th, 2013 at 01:21 AM.
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Old April 7th, 2013, 01:09 AM   #5676
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luhai View Post
It's also missing lots of non-high speed rail lines see below
This is the map I was looking for! it used to be in Wikipedia's China HSR article but then mysteriously disappeared. What's going and where can this map be found now?
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Old April 7th, 2013, 05:28 AM   #5677
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Every time I look this map it amazes me. One can go from Tropics to Ice City by high speed rail!
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Old April 7th, 2013, 01:36 PM   #5678
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Quote:
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Every time I look this map it amazes me. One can go from Tropics to Ice City by high speed rail!
Impossible.

There is no high speed rail between Qinhuangdao and Beijing, nor Tianjin. And high speed rail does not get across Beijing itself.
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Old April 7th, 2013, 07:39 PM   #5679
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Don't be so pedantic. Beijing-Shenyang line is serving with CRH5 trains. It takes ~4 hrs for ~700km. It is high speed by many standards. I know the new high speed line is under construction. But you are missing my point
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Old April 7th, 2013, 08:54 PM   #5680
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Don't be so pedantic. Beijing-Shenyang line is serving with CRH5 trains. It takes ~4 hrs for ~700km.
It takes >>4 hrs. More specifically, the fastest train on Beijing-Shenyang direction is D11, 4:44 for 703 km.
Compare
Beijing-Shanghai, G1, 4:48 for 1318 km
Beijing-Wuhan, G79, 4:17 for 1136 km
Beijing-Xian, G87, 4:40 for 1120 km
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
It is high speed by many standards.
Yes. But even comparing it with 200 km/h lines
Dalian North-Changchun, D8001, 4:10 for 693 km
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
I know the new high speed line is under construction. But you are missing my point
No, what I am noting is the bottlenecks, missing links and missing direct services.
Oh - and there are no D or G trains direct Shenyang-Shanghai or Shenyang-Guangzhou.
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