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Old May 5th, 2013, 10:44 AM   #5881
chornedsnorkack
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Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
While it needs denser freight lines in central and eastern provinces, it won't need as many freight lines that span across the whole country.
Spanning across Tibet is not particularly efficient because of mountains - only serving Tibet itself needs a crossing. But the 22 million population of Xinjiang means that all natural resources extracted from Xinjiang must be transported to east overland - except what is exported, also overland, to Kazakhstan or through Kazakhstan to Russia or Europe. And all supplies to Xinjiang must also be transported there overland.

As for, say, Kashgar-Hotan railway, note that the 3 prefectures it serves - Kashgar, Hotan, Kizilsu Autonomous - have a combined population of 6,5 millions. As much as the whole State of Arizona.

It is true that due to Kunlun and Gobi, the best railway route to connect the whole Xinjiang with eastern China is through Gansu corridor, branching westwards to serve the various parts of Xinjiang, whereas the similarly populous American Desert is served by multiple transcontinental railways crossing the Rockies at several points. Yet China does plan a parallel railway Golmud-Korla, undertaking for some reason to cross the Altyn-Tagh mountains.
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Old May 5th, 2013, 02:09 PM   #5882
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Old May 5th, 2013, 03:28 PM   #5883
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Originally Posted by gdolniak View Post
I won't argue about it, but the above photo was taken at the beginning of January (see the dates on the board) during the Chinese New Year rush. Please remember, that any other period of the year, the lines aren't that long.
Well, when I was last July in China it also looked like this on a Monday at Harbin Railway station (on the upper floor it was exactly the same as on the ground floor in the pic):



In Beijing, Shanghai and Fuzhou it was much easier to buy tickets, there were almost no queues.
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Old May 6th, 2013, 12:41 AM   #5884
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
As well as places needing 4 tracks just for passengers.

How does the capacity of a 4 track line compare with capacity of two parallel but distant railways of 2 tracks each?
It really depends on the traffic on each set of track. Mixed traffic reduces capacity a lot, so the current HSR buildout is designed to remove a lot of passenger traffic from the existing network which is mixed freight/passenger.

Here are some ballpark figures for China

Dedicated High Speed Rail
200-350km/h
150 trains per day
1000 passengers per train

Daqin Dedicated Freight
120km/h
60 trains per day
20000 tonnes per train

Mixed Traffic Conventional Trunkline (eg. Shanghai-Beijing)
200km/h max
60 passenger trains per day
1000 passengers per train
15 freight trains per day
5000 tonnes per train
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Old May 6th, 2013, 05:38 AM   #5885
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Originally Posted by gdolniak View Post
I won't argue about it, but the above photo was taken at the beginning of January (see the dates on the board) during the Chinese New Year rush. Please remember, that any other period of the year, the lines aren't that long.
You can tell me that when I was traveling in June and watch tickets been sold out right in front of my eyes.... Don't say stuff when you have not experienced it, not everything you saw on TV is true.

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Old May 6th, 2013, 05:57 AM   #5886
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Frankly, I am very suprised to see the change on this forum regarding Chinese rail investment. People used to claim China was over-investing to rail. Now, apparently, most people think China is not investing enough and should reach #1 in even per capita rail What a turn around!
Per new National Urban Planning by the government, the 2020 rail operational length target is set at 146,000 km, up by 26,000 km from previous planning. Commuter rail and city cluster rail will replace HSR to become the investment focus. i.e. Pearl River Delta's total rail projection is 370 bln yuan ($59.2 bln), 118 bln ($18.88bln) wll be completed between 2012 and 2020.

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Old May 6th, 2013, 06:32 AM   #5887
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Originally Posted by luhai View Post
You can tell me that when I was traveling in June and watch tickets been sold out right in front of my eyes.... Don't say stuff when you have not experienced it, not everything you saw on TV is true.
In my earlier post I said that I don't argue about the pictures or the situation and I still confirm that lines in any other period of a year, outside of Chinese New Year, are not as long as during the holidays.

China needs to invest in their transportation network, either highway or railway, and is doing so. I don't argue against it. I know, that after many years of neglect, this needs to be still improved.

Dear luhai - following your post - I live in China and I know about it. I have experienced that multiple times. I have also experience situations, when, for example I couldn't buy a ticket from Jingjiang, Fujian to Ningbo, Zhejiang, because "there were no seats left", so the only ticket I got was to Wenzhou. Interesting enough, after Wenzhou, when I prepared to stand the rest of the way, I realized that the train was empty. Go figure. Such situations happened many times.

You show a picture of a full car. Very nice. You look quite handsome on the photos. Computer ticketing system in China sells the tickets from the 1st seat in the 1st car up, so you can have 4 cars full of people and the next 4 cars virtually empty. Some other internal restrictions don't allow for better allocation of seats (see my description above). On this forum, several pages earlier was a photo of an empty high speed car from Shanghai to Hangzhou, with the same situation. Someone snapped a picture of an empty car, when behind him were full ones. At that time they claimed that the trains run empty.

Sometimes, efficiency is not in building more, but running it better. You will also agree that requiring IDs for some short train routes (i.e. Shenzhen - Guangzhou, Zhuhai - Guangzhou, etc.) creates a nuisance and frustration to the passengers, since the ticket clerks cannot work as fast as they could. Lo Wu station is probably the best example, having to deal with not only foreigners but also Hong Kong people (yes, their IDs do not work in the ticket machines). Please note that the ticket scalping simply doesn't exist on lines with trains running every 15 minutes or so.

Another example: buying train tickets in advance in China. What is it now? 10 days? How about any other country in the world? 3 months or more? Would allowing people, especially migrant workers, to buy tickets 3 to 6 months in advance shorten the queues at the train stations? I bet it would. But then, they couldn't show on the TV how the government with the army truly works very hard to accommodate their people.

Enough said.
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Old May 6th, 2013, 06:36 AM   #5888
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Chinese planners have realized the true monetary costs of traffic congestion while American politicians are still in denial of such truths...

If the American public (and politicians) could grasp the underhand costs incurred of not building the system, they would not object to spending $100 billion dollars to build an HSR network.
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Old May 6th, 2013, 07:03 AM   #5889
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Originally Posted by Silver Swordsman View Post
Chinese planners have realized the true monetary costs of traffic congestion while American politicians are still in denial of such truths...

If the American public (and politicians) could grasp the underhand costs incurred of not building the system, they would not object to spending $100 billion dollars to build an HSR network.
Here's the problem: it would cost a HUGE amount of money just to get the right of way for a high-speed rail system here in the USA. For example, to get the right of way to get the Acela trains to consistently run over 120 mph between Washington, DC and Boston would require buying right of way and doing current right of way improvements that could run into the several tens of billions of US dollars. And that's not including building sound walls and/or soundproofing buildings near the tracks when you have trains blasting by with noise levels like this:



China, because of its Communist rule, can build their CRH system because the government will have their way to where to construct the line--something the USA doesn't have.
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Old May 6th, 2013, 08:00 AM   #5890
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Originally Posted by gdolniak View Post
In my earlier post I said that I don't argue about the pictures or the situation and I still confirm that lines in any other period of a year, outside of Chinese New Year, are not as long as during the holidays.

China needs to invest in their transportation network, either highway or railway, and is doing so. I don't argue against it. I know, that after many years of neglect, this needs to be still improved.

Dear luhai - following your post - I live in China and I know about it. I have experienced that multiple times. I have also experience situations, when, for example I couldn't buy a ticket from Jingjiang, Fujian to Ningbo, Zhejiang, because "there were no seats left", so the only ticket I got was to Wenzhou. Interesting enough, after Wenzhou, when I prepared to stand the rest of the way, I realized that the train was empty. Go figure. Such situations happened many times.

You show a picture of a full car. Very nice. You look quite handsome on the photos. Computer ticketing system in China sells the tickets from the 1st seat in the 1st car up, so you can have 4 cars full of people and the next 4 cars virtually empty. Some other internal restrictions don't allow for better allocation of seats (see my description above). On this forum, several pages earlier was a photo of an empty high speed car from Shanghai to Hangzhou, with the same situation. Someone snapped a picture of an empty car, when behind him were full ones. At that time they claimed that the trains run empty.

Sometimes, efficiency is not in building more, but running it better. You will also agree that requiring IDs for some short train routes (i.e. Shenzhen - Guangzhou, Zhuhai - Guangzhou, etc.) creates a nuisance and frustration to the passengers, since the ticket clerks cannot work as fast as they could. Lo Wu station is probably the best example, having to deal with not only foreigners but also Hong Kong people (yes, their IDs do not work in the ticket machines). Please note that the ticket scalping simply doesn't exist on lines with trains running every 15 minutes or so.

Another example: buying train tickets in advance in China. What is it now? 10 days? How about any other country in the world? 3 months or more? Would allowing people, especially migrant workers, to buy tickets 3 to 6 months in advance shorten the queues at the train stations? I bet it would. But then, they couldn't show on the TV how the government with the army truly works very hard to accommodate their people.

Enough said.
I was traveling in June on my rail trips in China, the cars are indeed full and I constantly have trouble buying tickets. (Often not getting the train I want, because it's all sold out. I started just after the college entrance exams are done... I guess lots of people travel afterwards) This is before I have neither Union Pay or National ID card. I did the best I could with ticket windows, but no luck. Also there was lots of confusion about tickets, sometimes the all sold out ticket are not truly all sold out if you go to the window in person rather than through an agent at the hotel. But then, that never happend to me. Just stories when I travel, people keeps telling different things. Actually, one of the lady from Tai'an station told me there might be tickets in Jinan's windows (So I actually get a standing ticket to Jinan, never knew there was such as thing as standing ticket for HSRs), but on her system it shows all sold out. Which is the origins of that picture.

For short route, I think it's would be better if they can integrate metro-card into the mix and use unreserved seating. (Essentially running it as a inter-city metro) After all, it's just a 30 minute trip, not a cross country train trip.

I did buy Amtrak tickets before, I don't think it's possible to do it 3 month prior. I believe it was two weeks, when I booked it. And I need to show my driver's clients to exchange my online print out with an actual tickets. However, it's not a pure train trip, it's train-bus-train trips with most of the time spent on a bus. (5 hours for just 250 miles, but I have no other choice. I don't own a car back then.)
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Old May 6th, 2013, 08:12 AM   #5891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
Per new National Urban Planning by the government, the 2020 rail operational length target is set at 146,000 km, up by 26,000 km from previous planning. Commuter rail and city cluster rail will replace HSR to become the investment focus. i.e. Pearl River Delta's total rail projection is 370 bln yuan ($59.2 bln), 118 bln ($18.88bln) wll be completed between 2012 and 2020.

link

Well, that's the next logical and expected step for rail development. Once the backbone is in place these additional developments will be bonuses

This decade will be remembered in the future for infrastructure development. Not only high speed rail but with other big impact projects in energy and urbanization...
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Old May 6th, 2013, 01:46 PM   #5892
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. And that's not including building sound walls and/or soundproofing buildings near the tracks when you have trains blasting by with noise levels like this:
None of the modern, light weight, high speed trains on new track I have come across have come close to the noise production of the heavy, slow speed Amtrak colossi on worn down freight tracks I have experienced.
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Old May 6th, 2013, 05:51 PM   #5893
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Originally Posted by luhai View Post
I was traveling in June on my rail trips in China, the cars are indeed full and I constantly have trouble buying tickets. (Often not getting the train I want, because it's all sold out. I started just after the college entrance exams are done... I guess lots of people travel afterwards) This is before I have neither Union Pay or National ID card. I did the best I could with ticket windows, but no luck. Also there was lots of confusion about tickets, sometimes the all sold out ticket are not truly all sold out if you go to the window in person rather than through an agent at the hotel. But then, that never happend to me. Just stories when I travel, people keeps telling different things. Actually, one of the lady from Tai'an station told me there might be tickets in Jinan's windows (So I actually get a standing ticket to Jinan, never knew there was such as thing as standing ticket for HSRs), but on her system it shows all sold out. Which is the origins of that picture.

For short route, I think it's would be better if they can integrate metro-card into the mix and use unreserved seating. (Essentially running it as a inter-city metro) After all, it's just a 30 minute trip, not a cross country train trip.

I did buy Amtrak tickets before, I don't think it's possible to do it 3 month prior. I believe it was two weeks, when I booked it. And I need to show my driver's clients to exchange my online print out with an actual tickets. However, it's not a pure train trip, it's train-bus-train trips with most of the time spent on a bus. (5 hours for just 250 miles, but I have no other choice. I don't own a car back then.)
I agree with what you are saying, but just for the record Amtrak allows booking up to 11 months in advance.
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Old May 6th, 2013, 11:22 PM   #5894
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This is before I have neither Union Pay or National ID card. I did the best I could with ticket windows, but no luck. Also there was lots of confusion about tickets, sometimes the all sold out ticket are not truly all sold out if you go to the window in person rather than through an agent at the hotel.
Tickets are sold beginning 20 to 10 days prior to the date of travel. This happens on 12306 as well as the windows and agents and train ticket offices all over China.

You have to plan ahead, especially after June 8 when the students finish exams and then after June 30 when all other students are done with school and go home and families travel.

If you were to fly, you would want to book your trip and hotel this week for early July.
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Old May 7th, 2013, 12:26 AM   #5895
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...

...

China, because of its Communist rule, can build their CRH system because the government will have their way to where to construct the line--something the USA doesn't have.
I wonder how the "Interstate" was built .
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Old May 7th, 2013, 04:58 AM   #5896
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You have to plan ahead, especially after June 8 when the students finish exams and then after June 30 when all other students are done with school and go home and families travel.

If you were to fly, you would want to book your trip and hotel this week for early July.
Actually my philosophy with traveling is to book the ticket the day of or the day before the ride. This way, my travel is around my sightseeing, rather than the other way around.

It would be great if there are special cars with metrol style seating, and ticketing for short distance trips. It would be benefited a lot for my little trip.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 07:57 AM   #5897
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China, because of its Communist rule, can build their CRH system because the government will have their way to where to construct the line--something the USA doesn't have.
Not always. I heard the Beijing-Shenyang HSR has to change route and delay schedule due to the protests from local residents.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 07:58 AM   #5898
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Nanjing-Hangzhou and Hangzhou-Ningbo HSR opening date disclosed, June 30th 2013



by @东南商报
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Old May 8th, 2013, 09:23 AM   #5899
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What shall the trip time be Nanjing-Hangzhou-Ningbo from 30th of June?
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Old May 8th, 2013, 08:23 PM   #5900
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Originally Posted by luhai View Post
Actually my philosophy with traveling is to book the ticket the day of or the day before the ride. This way, my travel is around my sightseeing, rather than the other way around.

It would be great if there are special cars with metrol style seating, and ticketing for short distance trips. It would be benefited a lot for my little trip.
They always sell standing tickets, so for very short trips (<30 min) I'll jump on the first train available regardless whether a seat is available, and for vast majority of them there are open seats, if not I can always sit in the dining car.
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