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Old June 14th, 2013, 03:38 PM   #6061
El_Greco
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
It is expensive when compared to the old classic N, K, L, T and Z trains. Those can be so cheap it is nearly free, but the cost is low because you spend so much time on them.

Most trips via CRH are 3 to 8 hours and the previous old classic train would take 12 to 36 hours. 18 hours in most cases. Just such a long time.

When a train CRH ZHGT line opens the airfares on that route drop to 120% of the train ticket price.

Fast trains are doubly good in that aspect as cheap discount air fares are now available all over China.
That's an amazing contrast. There's still a lot of countries in Europe where 12-18 hour trips are the norm. Not to mention the prices are pretty high, which, as I see it, is the biggest problem with train travel in Europe. It is often far cheaper to fly than take the train.
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Old June 14th, 2013, 07:47 PM   #6062
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Hangzhou East 06/13/13





Ningbo South 06/13/13













------

crappy quality though :/
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Old June 14th, 2013, 10:52 PM   #6063
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
That's an amazing contrast. There's still a lot of countries in Europe where 12-18 hour trips are the norm. Not to mention the prices are pretty high, which, as I see it, is the biggest problem with train travel in Europe. It is often far cheaper to fly than take the train.
Here is a good example of a random N train, old style, in China.

Train No. Type Station Station No. Arrives Departs Day Distance(km)
6045 A/C Slow Train Linfen 1 / 11:40 1 0
6045 A/C Slow Train Xiangfen 2 12:02 12:04 1 26
6045 A/C Slow Train Houma 3 12:41 12:51 1 60
6045 A/C Slow Train Xinjiang 4 13:09 13:11 1 76
6045 A/C Slow Train Jishan 5 13:32 13:35 1 96
6045 A/C Slow Train Hejin 6 14:05 14:08 1 122
6045 A/C Slow Train Hancheng 7 15:16 / 1 165

Distance of 165kms in 3h 36m, 3.6 hours.
This is an average speed of 45.83 kms/hour.
That's how fast intercity small buses are.
That's SLOWER than a small 50cc motobike.

That line won't get CRH anytime soon, but a comparable velocity increase would have that trip time reduced to 45 to 60 minutes with a D train at 200 kms/hour.
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Old June 14th, 2013, 11:56 PM   #6064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
That's an amazing contrast. There's still a lot of countries in Europe where 12-18 hour trips are the norm. Not to mention the prices are pretty high, which, as I see it, is the biggest problem with train travel in Europe. It is often far cheaper to fly than take the train.
It's hard to compare it to Europe. Firstly, there aren't any HSR lines (or, in fact any lines) in Europe that would have direct services going for such long distances. France or Germany have good national services but if you want to get, say, from Madrid to Berlin... ehm. It's not really that great I suppose. You can't just hop on a 300km/h HSR train and forget the rest.

The distance between Beijing and Guangzhou equals distance between Barcelona and Warsaw. Or Madrid and Berlin.

The reality is that China has leapfrogged Europe (and pretty much everything else) in long distance passenger rail transport. In 1990 it was like 30 years behind. Today it's 30 years ahead.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 12:30 AM   #6065
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Yeah the progress in China is simply amazing.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 03:38 AM   #6066
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Besides a great long term vision and perseverance, China also has had a few 'lucky breaks' when it came to implementing HSR. For example, electrification was already at 25kV and the gauge was already 1435 mm. Just some small factors that helped speed things along (no pun intended).
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Old June 15th, 2013, 05:04 AM   #6067
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
It's hard to compare it to Europe. Firstly, there aren't any HSR lines (or, in fact any lines) in Europe that would have direct services going for such long distances.
True. Probably the only comparable international train service would be Eurostart or DB ICE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
The reality is that China has leapfrogged Europe (and pretty much everything else) in long distance passenger rail transport. In 1990 it was like 30 years behind. Today it's 30 years ahead.
Yes, and no. Remember, Europe has different countries with different rail systems, as it comes with different voltage, gauge, signalling, laws, budgets, etc. Think about it. China is one country. One voltage, one gauge, same signalling, same laws, one budget, etc.

Looking at it from this perspective, we could also assume, that Europe is still 30 years AHEAD of China if it comes for international local and long-distance rail services. I think you can agree on this.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 05:13 AM   #6068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdolniak View Post



Yes, and no. Remember, Europe has different countries with different rail systems, as it comes with different voltage, gauge, signalling, laws, budgets, etc. Think about it. China is one country. One voltage, one gauge, same signalling, same laws, one budget, etc.

Looking at it from this perspective, we could also assume, that Europe is still 30 years AHEAD of China if it comes for international local and long-distance rail services. I think you can agree on this.
I'm not saying Europe doesn't have all those difficulties but I'm just stating it as a matter of fact. As a passenger that's all I care about. And the EU and common market has been around for a while. What was the reason things didn't improve? Utter lack of political will. Hardly an excuse if you want to stay competitive.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 08:16 AM   #6069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnatho View Post

Ningbo South 06/13/13

crappy quality though :/
Not much progress on Ningbo South.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 11:50 AM   #6070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
It is expensive when compared to the old classic N, K, L, T and Z trains. Those can be so cheap it is nearly free, but the cost is low because you spend so much time on them.

Most trips via CRH are 3 to 8 hours and the previous old classic train would take 12 to 36 hours. 18 hours in most cases. Just such a long time.
Up to over 37, yes
The longest CRH routes:
Shenzhen-Beijing: 1 G at 10:25
1 T at 23:48 and 1 K at 19:24
Shenzhen-Xian: 2 G at 9:42 and 9:33
2 K at 37:24 and 30:12
Guangzhou-Taiyuan: 1 G at 9:48
1 K at 34:36
Beijing-Fuzhou: 1 D at 15:10
1 Z at 19:42 and 1 K at 34:35
Shanghai-Longyan: 1 D at 10:17
1 K at 20:24
BUT these are routes where even CRH takes over 8 hours.

If you specify only routes where at least some CRH trains travel under 8 hours, the picture is a bit different.
Guangzhou-Beijing: 1 G at 7:59, the other 2 at 9:40 and 9:51
4 T at 20:39 to 21:50, 1 K at 29:10
Guangzhou-Xian: 1 G at 7:40, the other 5 from 8:51 to 9:09
2 T at 21:35 and 23:07, 5 K from 25:52 to 30:05
Beijing-Harbin: 3 D from 7:52 to 7:59, the fourth at 8:12
2 Z at 9:49 and 10:01, 3 T from 10:27 to 12:29, 4 K from 14:50 to 18:22, and one number train at 17:21.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 01:25 PM   #6071
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
The reality is that China has leapfrogged Europe (and pretty much everything else) in long distance passenger rail transport. In 1990 it was like 30 years behind. Today it's 30 years ahead.
Not sure Europe is moving in the same direction at all nor does it necessarily need to. I have an impression that our aviation market is far more developed than the one in China. No good reason to take a train from Madrid to Berlin and spend an entire day doing it it even if HS all the way instead of taking a cheap flight lasting just 2-3 hours. Chinese system is great for China, but I question the need for exactly the same here.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 03:36 PM   #6072
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
I'm not saying Europe doesn't have all those difficulties but I'm just stating it as a matter of fact. As a passenger that's all I care about. And the EU and common market has been around for a while. What was the reason things didn't improve? Utter lack of political will. Hardly an excuse if you want to stay competitive.
Don't forget the main issue here - money! Compare the average budget of an average European country with Chinese government budget. Especially pay attention on the proportion of the budget that goes into education (yes, China spend very little on education) and on social services. I'm sure that if EU could lower these spending to Chinese levels, it can build all the railway they want. But, well... You are right. Utter lack of political will.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 05:38 PM   #6073
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Don't forget that Madrid and Berlin, although being both in TOP10 cities in Europe have even together significantly less inhabitants than Sheznzhen, Guangzhou, Wuhan, etc. Passenger traffic between those European cities is significantly less than in China. Less than a dozen flight services daily are usually far enough.
Where it is not enough (e.g. Madrid-Barcelona, Milan-Rome) there are HSLs available.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 06:44 PM   #6074
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Originally Posted by Attus View Post
Don't forget that Madrid and Berlin, although being both in TOP10 cities in Europe have even together significantly less inhabitants than Sheznzhen, Guangzhou, Wuhan, etc. Passenger traffic between those European cities is significantly less than in China. Less than a dozen flight services daily are usually far enough.
Where it is not enough (e.g. Madrid-Barcelona, Milan-Rome) there are HSLs available.
Even if they had more inhabitants than the Chinese cities you mentioned they would still be in different countries which don't even border each other and international traffic is inherently less dense. It would be more proper to compare with Beijing-Seoul or Gungzhou-Hanoi.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 11:08 PM   #6075
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Well I sure wish that would be the case. But China doesn't border any developed Asian countries with a high population density necessitating HSR.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 11:13 PM   #6076
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But China doesn't border any developed Asian countries with a high population density necessitating HSR.
Korea and Vietnam both have high population density.

How is the progress of Shenyang-Dandong high-speed railway? And are there any plans for Dandong-Pyongyang?
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Old June 15th, 2013, 11:48 PM   #6077
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Guangzhou-Hanoi would make some sense on paper, but in reality perhaps the traffic flow doesn't justify it yet.

By the way is the HS line from Guangzhou to Nanning already in operation? It would constitute more than a half of line to Hanoi.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 12:11 AM   #6078
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
How is the progress of Shenyang-Dandong high-speed railway? And are there any plans for Dandong-Pyongyang?
Shenyang to Dandong is scheduled to open in 2015. It's claimed that the HSR lines to Dandong, Hunchun, and Mudanjiang are designed in part to allow the rapid movement of troops into North Korea.

North Korea has been seeking Chinese private investments for BOT infrastructure projects, which includes HSR. But who in their right mind invests in North Korea?
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Old June 16th, 2013, 01:01 AM   #6079
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Shenyang to Dandong is scheduled to open in 2015. It's claimed that the HSR lines to Dandong, Hunchun, and Mudanjiang are designed in part to allow the rapid movement of troops into North Korea.

North Korea has been seeking Chinese private investments for BOT infrastructure projects, which includes HSR. But who in their right mind invests in North Korea?
I'd ignore the claims about using HSR for moving troops into North Korea.

The troops are going to end up in trucks or armoured vehicles when they reach the border anyway. So it's just easier and faster to drive to North Korea from Shenyang or Harbin.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 01:37 AM   #6080
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The troops are going to end up in trucks or armoured vehicles when they reach the border anyway. So it's just easier and faster to drive to North Korea from Shenyang or Harbin.
Well, with HSR you could transfer about a thousand troops per train over night from anywhere in China to the North-Korean border.

Have a couple hundred trains do this and in one night you'll have an entire army at that border... can't do that with trucks.
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