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Old August 8th, 2013, 06:50 AM   #6301
big-dog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Are there currently any HS lines in operation or under construction going from Guangzhou towards Nanning and Vietnamese border?
FYI. Most U/C HSR lines will open either this year or early next year.

The Nanning-Vietnam traditional rail is u/c as part of Pan-Asia Rail. The HSR is only at pro/prep stage.

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Originally Posted by RockAss View Post
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four u/c lines:
1. Guangzhou-Nanning Railway, 577km, designed speed 250 km/h
2. Yunnan–Guangxi High-speed railway (Kunming–Nanning), 710km, designed speed 200-250 km/h
3. Liuzhou–Nanning Intercity Railway, 223km, designed speed 250 km/h
Hunan–Guangxi Railway (Hengyang–Liuzhou), 498km, designed speed 200-250 km/h
4. Guangxi Coastal Railway, 261km, designed speed 250 km/h
Nanning–Qinzhou (99km)
Qinzhou–Fangchenggang (100km)
Qinzhou–Beihai (63km)

two pro/prep lines:
1. Nanning–Pingxiang High-Speed Line
2. Nanning-Hechi line

Source: people.com.cn Nanning railway hub special plan was approved six high-speed rail lines (《南宁枢纽铁路专项规划》获批复 六条高铁入南宁)

Around Nanning
image hosted on flickr

few more pictures Nanning-Qinzhou line
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images by ljnd from gaoloumi
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Old August 8th, 2013, 07:29 AM   #6302
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The aerial view looks so neat..i guess these high speed trains are pretty amazing in both in speed and efficiency.
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Old August 9th, 2013, 08:12 AM   #6303
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HSR and traditional train in Daxing, Beijing Suburb



by 扈军
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Old August 10th, 2013, 03:28 PM   #6304
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Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
I'm sorry, I don't see how that relates to building a 350km/h capable line instead of a 250km/h capable line in a certain part of the country because it is poor. My understanding is that this line was built to slower standards because it's a poor part of the country. I feel like they should have built it to higher standards because in the future faster transport will be more feasible.
Projects are done based upon persuasion, sales and engineering. At the national level, that means politics.

Politics will always trump all other concerns, and what was politically possible was 250kph in a poor province that had one benefactor fall from grace and one in the inner circle.
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Old August 11th, 2013, 09:11 AM   #6305
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Blue is a cheaper pigment and reflects sunlight. Supposedly they are saving white for something else.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 11:20 PM   #6306
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At the end of 2012, the high speed rail network was 9300 km in route length.

Big milestone question: On what date in 2013, will it reach 10,000 km?
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Old August 14th, 2013, 06:46 PM   #6307
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Solving the Railway Financing Dilemma
14 August 2013
Caixin

Current funding options are not working, meaning it is time for changes that can bring in trillions of yuan As excessive production capacity has been seen in many industries, the railway sector has become the major target for investment and is expected to support more steady growth. A July 24 State Council executive meeting even tackled the issue of railway investment reform.

Yet the China Railway Corp. (CRC) was saddled with debt of 2.84 trillion yuan by March, unprofitable new railroads and costly projects. It must raise enormous funds to cover the operational deficits, service existing debt and pay for new projects. Where will the money come from? At present, none of the existing financing options are viable.

Debt financing will be difficult. The CRC has a debt-to-asset ratio of 62.31 percent and is facing a debt maturity peak. Continuing to take on large-scale bonds or loans, even with interest subsidies by local governments, will further increase the burden and may also accelerate funding breaks.

Equity financing has limited appeal. The CRC tried to encourage more social funds to participate in the railway construction fund with few results. The reason is that railroads, especially high-speed projects, have not been profitable. There is no exit strategy for investors. In fact, Ping An Insurance Group and National Social Security Fund, which invested in the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway line in 2007, have asked the CRC to buy back their shares. Alternatively, despite government policies to encourage direct private investment in railroad projects, the market reaction has been lukewarm.

The dilemma requires more drastic reforms than simple investment and financing changes. Rather, it requires deeper levels of government and market interaction in railroad transport development strategy and management.

The central government needs to separate public policy objectives from market-oriented railroad operations. The government has long used the railroads to carry out policy objectives such as keeping passenger fares low and providing service to remote and impoverished areas. Profit from freight transport is used to fund those objectives, but the diversion of freight income depresses overall profitability and attractiveness to investors. Central authorities should directly fund their public policy objectives and allow the railways to be operated like enterprises. Profitable operations will attract more capital. The railroad construction strategy needs to be revised. The "Great Leap Forward" in high-speed construction under former minister Liu Zhijun created massive debt. The projects have failed to generate revenue as railroads suffer from overcapacity, low ridership and high costs.

Expansion should move away from building costly high-speed lines in sparsely populated western regions, and focus on building commuter rail in urban and suburban areas. In Tokyo, for example, there is 1,134 kilometers of commuter rail and 312 kilometers of subway track. This is fairly standard in cities around the world. Commuter rail construction could be financed from the sale of land near rail stations that rise in value, a winning situation for all parties. This financing model will require changes to local governments' tax and land sales models. Railroad organization management needs to be overhauled. The 18 rail bureaus under the CRC are holdovers of the previous Ministry of Railways. The bureaus are much too fragmented for effective management and independent operation as autonomous market actors. Most of the freight handled by any given bureau must be shipped through other bureaus and requires centralized management from the CRC. They are incapable of setting their own rates or raising their own funds, and depend on centralized accounting and funding outlays. This organizational structure is the biggest impediment to attracting investments from society at large. The CRC should organize the bureaus into subsidiaries – perhaps three in all – one for the north, central and south part of the country. Each company would be a legal person capable of issuing bonds and controlling its own finances. The CRC would act as the controlling shareholder and outside investors can own stakes in these companies. The subsidiaries would also be more responsive to market forces.

There are other ways to bring in market forces and private capital. The CRC can consider selling unprofitable lines to the private sector as new management may be able to turn these around. The CRC should also allow private railroad operators to access to the national network. Currently, privately and locally financed railroads and trains in operation are not permitted to connect to the CRC's national network. Granting access will increase investments in privately and locally owned rail projects. The CRC might also be able to rent out its large idle rolling stock to private companies.

These deeper reforms can unlock the potential for trillions of yuan to flow into the sector and directly enhance economic growth and societal development. The author is a professor of economics and management at Beijing Jiaotong University
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Old August 16th, 2013, 12:49 AM   #6308
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Guangzhou - Shenzhen discount fares to continue till the end of October, except for Golden Week.
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Old August 16th, 2013, 12:54 AM   #6309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Solving the Railway Financing Dilemma
14 August 2013
Caixin

...Expansion should move away from building costly high-speed lines in sparsely populated western regions, and focus on building commuter rail in urban and suburban areas....
Is he saying to stop building HSR and build commuter networks around major cities instead? That would be a little stupid. China desperately needs to continue HSR expansion AND build commuter railways. There is no need to 'move away' from anything.
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Old August 16th, 2013, 01:09 AM   #6310
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No, he is just trying to create excuses to privatize the rail system.
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Old August 16th, 2013, 02:02 AM   #6311
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The perception I've got is that Caixin usually doesn't even try to mask its open and straightforward support for private corporate agenda. Not that it's always a bad thing but I think infrastructure and especially railways should neither be tools for private corporations nor politicians seeking popularity or irrational political goals. It should be something that benefits economy in the long term through making people more mobile and land more attractive for living and economic activities. It looks like this is pretty much what has been happening through the rapid expansion of HSR system. Or am I wrong and it's all just a political show-off?

I'm not sure how privatization of railways would make it better. Examples show that it may go horribly wrong in some cases (e.g. Britain).
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Old August 16th, 2013, 03:27 AM   #6312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Solving the Railway Financing Dilemma
I don't really understand this. Just about a year or so ago, maybe more, I read articles about China desperately needing places to invest their vast surplus of money... rail seems to be a very solid long-term investment, even for currently 'poor' inner sections of the country. If I had money to invest I would totally invest in Chinese HSR. All the HSR I used in China was PACKED, and not cheap for Chinese standards. Surely a long-term profit is almost a certainty. Granted, I only used rail between big cities, but those should be able to bring in so much money to actually also be able to help fund the 'smaller' HSR lines in more rural areas.
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Old August 16th, 2013, 05:17 AM   #6313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
It should be something that benefits economy in the long term through making people more mobile and land more attractive for living and economic activities.

Absolutely! Once you got that you can see there is almost no way China can over-invest in rail for medium term (~10 years).

There may be some exceptions of course but vast majority of investment on rail system is justified, in my opinion.
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Old August 16th, 2013, 05:29 AM   #6314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
I don't really understand this. Just about a year or so ago, maybe more, I read articles about China desperately needing places to invest their vast surplus of money... rail seems to be a very solid long-term investment, even for currently 'poor' inner sections of the country. If I had money to invest I would totally invest in Chinese HSR. All the HSR I used in China was PACKED, and not cheap for Chinese standards. Surely a long-term profit is almost a certainty. Granted, I only used rail between big cities, but those should be able to bring in so much money to actually also be able to help fund the 'smaller' HSR lines in more rural areas.
Well, the tides have turned and there are suspicions of a looming debt crisis in China. You are right to say the long-term viability of HSR is sound, but they spent hundreds of billions building these things and the interest costs alone cannot be sustained by today's full trains.
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Old August 16th, 2013, 09:28 AM   #6315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Well, the tides have turned and there are suspicions of a looming debt crisis in China. You are right to say the long-term viability of HSR is sound, but they spent hundreds of billions building these things and the interest costs alone cannot be sustained by today's full trains.
That's why 'investors' should stay away .
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Old August 16th, 2013, 09:30 AM   #6316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
image hosted on flickr
[/url]
IMG_2105 -1 by jo.sau, on Flickr
I bought my ticket at around 11.50. The first train I could take was 16:05
Maybe it was just that time? So you say it won't happen like this from GZ South to Gongbei?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
All the HSR I used in China was PACKED, and not cheap for Chinese standards. Surely a long-term profit is almost a certainty. Granted, I only used rail between big cities, but those should be able to bring in so much money to actually also be able to help fund the 'smaller' HSR lines in more rural areas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Well, the tides have turned and there are suspicions of a looming debt crisis in China. You are right to say the long-term viability of HSR is sound, but they spent hundreds of billions building these things and the interest costs alone cannot be sustained by today's full trains.
It's a problem alright. Silly_Walks found the trains are so packed; Pansori couldn't even get a ticket; I'm not an accountant, but I do read newspapers who agree with hkskyline on the repayment of interest. So why in the inscrutable orient are nonexistent tickets for packed trains being discounted?
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Old August 16th, 2013, 09:43 AM   #6317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xinxingren View Post
It's a problem alright. Silly_Walks found the trains are so packed; Pansori couldn't even get a ticket; I'm not an accountant, but I do read newspapers who agree with hkskyline on the repayment of interest. So why in the inscrutable orient are nonexistent tickets for packed trains being discounted?
To alleviate congestion and maximize revenues .
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Old August 16th, 2013, 10:29 AM   #6318
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Any idea when is the Xiamen-Shenzhen high speed line will start service?
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Old August 16th, 2013, 10:35 AM   #6319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xinxingren View Post
It's a problem alright. Silly_Walks found the trains are so packed; Pansori couldn't even get a ticket; I'm not an accountant, but I do read newspapers who agree with hkskyline on the repayment of interest. So why in the inscrutable orient are nonexistent tickets for packed trains being discounted?
I tried this exact Shenzhen North - Guangzhou South route recently (G trains). They were all sold out. I had to wait 6 hours for the next available departure in Deluxe Class (not Second, not First, but one above First). I ended up taking a bus but secured the return for the next day in First Class.

My return trip left with a full First Class.

Shenzhen - Guangzhou East sees far more D trains and the ticket situation is a lot better.
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Old August 16th, 2013, 10:48 AM   #6320
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I wonder how this line gets even busier when it is extended to Hong Kong. I hope there is an express train from HK to SZ standing room only similar to subway trains and does not need to line up to buy tickets. Just use the Octopus or Shenzhen Tong cards.
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