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Old October 6th, 2009, 11:44 AM   #621
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You are looking at it from the wrong perspective, you have to go back to the year 2000.

After Alstom bought Fiat in 2000 many high speed lines were under construction and have now been completed. And there are even more lines that are still under construction or have planing permission, including lines into France, Switzerland, Austria and Slovenia. In other words, Italy has a rapidly expending network of high speed lines. As a result of this many new high speed trains were needed, therefor the ETR 600/610 and the 2nd generation ETR 500 have been ordered. The upcoming order that you mentioned for 50/60 new HS trains is even more proof that the market is still expanding especially with a new player like NTV on the scene with their AGVs. It's common knowledge that Italy, Spain, France and Russia are the growing markets in Europe when it comes to HSR developments right now.

Therefor it was a smart move for Alstom to buy Fiat back since the Italian railways have never bought high speed trains from manufactures that aren't active in Italy (like Siemens). And back in 2000 Bombardier hadn't even developed the Zefiro yet, so it was still an open market for the current tender for the new trains (assuming that the tender is still open). And how is that tender even going? Who has entered and when will it be decided?

But still, the tilting technology was the most important reason why Alstom bought FIAT, that's why I put it as the first reason in my 1st post of this discussion.
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Old October 6th, 2009, 12:44 PM   #622
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But, Momo1435, doesn't your argument shoot itself in the foot? I mean, I would agree with the second part of what you say, namely that Alstom wanted Fiat's railway division in order to acquire tilt technology. But this makes sense only if they planned to expand their market shares in countries without dedicated HS lines. The fact that a lot of HSLs were under construction in 2000 would, if anything, serve as an argument for shunning tilt technology to concentrate on the traditional TGVs (and prospective AGVs).

You seem to mix this argument with another, more implicit, point about Alstom wanting to put a foot inside the Italian home market? A hope of being allowed to competed with the constructors of ETR510 once they could point to an indigenous Italian production base? That would be a long shot.
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Old October 6th, 2009, 04:05 PM   #623
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But, Momo1435, doesn't your argument shoot itself in the foot? I mean, I would agree with the second part of what you say, namely that Alstom wanted Fiat's railway division in order to acquire tilt technology. But this makes sense only if they planned to expand their market shares in countries without dedicated HS lines. The fact that a lot of HSLs were under construction in 2000 would, if anything, serve as an argument for shunning tilt technology to concentrate on the traditional TGVs (and prospective AGVs).
Both are not exclusive and can be true at the same time. They could want to open new business with a niche product and technology they didn't master before and still expand their HST line. The TGVs were allready an established product and Alstom very well known for it. Tiliting technology on the other hand offers a new perspective, new business opportunity. Mostly because not every one country can build and operate a new HSL. It's therefore a good alternative to accelerate travel and reduce travel time on regular lines in a world obsessed with high mobility.

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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
You seem to mix this argument with another, more implicit, point about Alstom wanting to put a foot inside the Italian home market? A hope of being allowed to competed with the constructors of ETR510 once they could point to an indigenous Italian production base? That would be a long shot.
That's quite a normal policy and it's usual among rail and air business (that's also true in other type of businesses). That's what Bombardier did in Europe. They buy out many local constructors and factories there in order to have a foothole and compete equaly with indigenous producers. Nowadays Bombardier is one of the biggest European train manufacturer along with Alstom and Siemens.
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Old October 6th, 2009, 05:43 PM   #624
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That's very interesting. Are you sure? That means we'll see the new AGV and Zefiro compete head-to-head in Italy in a few years' time. Funny thing that, if you're right: the launch client for Zefiro was China. Next they sell it to Italy. How about the Canadians buying some of their own trains? .
No. The Zefiro project will concern the Bombardier's european branch plus an unknown "strategic partner". I think it will be AnsaldoBreda...which is in really big trouble bacause of the poor reiability of their stuff, and for the delays, and needs orders. Here is the agreement:

http://www.finmeccanica.it/EN/Common..._04_08_ING.pdf.

Plus Bombardier has a very big facility in Italy, which is located in Vado Ligure (Bombardier Transportation Italy).
However don't think that AGV or Zefiro will run over 300 kph in Italy...300 kph will be the speed limit for the Italian TAV.

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Also my impression. That takeover was apparently motivated by Alstom getting a bit frustrated over the gap in their product lineup. They had fully fledged TGVs for countries willing to invest zillions in new lines, and they had ordinary trains. They didn't have a scaled-down HS solution to offer countries like Finland, Czech Republic and Switzerland.
And this exports have really poor quality...look at the chinese CRH5, the dead Cisalpino's ETR (currently known as Cessoalpino i.e. Alpine w.c.). What a fantastic achievement for we italians...AnsaldoBreda shit, Alstom Ferroviaria shit...i have to continue? The glorious italian railway industry is DEAD because of poor quality and political matters. Typical italian shit. The only italian (good) railway firm is FIREMA, based in Caserta, but it is too small to compete against Alstom, Bombardier, Siemens, Talgo, CAF and the japanese firms (Kawasaki, Hitachi, etc.).
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Old October 6th, 2009, 05:50 PM   #625
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You are looking at it from the wrong perspective, you have to go back to the year 2000.

After Alstom bought Fiat in 2000 many high speed lines were under construction and have now been completed. And there are even more lines that are still under construction or have planing permission, including lines into France, Switzerland, Austria and Slovenia. In other words, Italy has a rapidly expending network of high speed lines. As a result of this many new high speed trains were needed, therefor the ETR 600/610 and the 2nd generation ETR 500 have been ordered. The upcoming order that you mentioned for 50/60 new HS trains is even more proof that the market is still expanding especially with a new player like NTV on the scene with their AGVs. It's common knowledge that Italy, Spain, France and Russia are the growing markets in Europe when it comes to HSR developments right now.

Therefor it was a smart move for Alstom to buy Fiat back since the Italian railways have never bought high speed trains from manufactures that aren't active in Italy (like Siemens). And back in 2000 Bombardier hadn't even developed the Zefiro yet, so it was still an open market for the current tender for the new trains (assuming that the tender is still open). And how is that tender even going? Who has entered and when will it be decided?

But still, the tilting technology was the most important reason why Alstom bought FIAT, that's why I put it as the first reason in my 1st post of this discussion.
You can buy whatever you want, but if your products have poor quality...
However there's the possibility of an AGV pendulaire built adopting the tilting ex/FIAT technology...maybe...
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Old October 6th, 2009, 06:05 PM   #626
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
But, Momo1435, doesn't your argument shoot itself in the foot? I mean, I would agree with the second part of what you say, namely that Alstom wanted Fiat's railway division in order to acquire tilt technology. But this makes sense only if they planned to expand their market shares in countries without dedicated HS lines. The fact that a lot of HSLs were under construction in 2000 would, if anything, serve as an argument for shunning tilt technology to concentrate on the traditional TGVs (and prospective AGVs).

You seem to mix this argument with another, more implicit, point about Alstom wanting to put a foot inside the Italian home market? A hope of being allowed to competed with the constructors of ETR510 once they could point to an indigenous Italian production base? That would be a long shot.
But the tilting system is useless on the new HS lines...it is useful only on the normal electrified lines to increase speed in the curves of a traditional railway line...such as Napoli/Bari, Napoli/Reggio Calabria, Venezia/Verona/Bologna, Genova/Roma...on these lines, the non tilting trains can go only at 180 Kph maximum, while the tilting ETRs can go at 200 kph on straights and 30/35 per cent faster than non tilting trains in the curves, and at 250 kph on the TAV lines...the tilting ETRs haven't been built specifically for the HS lines...but to increase speeds on the traditional tracks, especially the transappennine and the coastal ones, which have a lot of curves.

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Old October 6th, 2009, 06:05 PM   #627
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@disturbman,

Indeed.

Alstom bought the tilt technology to really own it, before they bought it they often worked together with FIAT on international orders and by buying it they would have it in their own hands. FIAT also worked together with other the other train builders, by taking it over Alstom could also ensure that the competitors didn't have access to it anymore most noticeably Siemens. After the takeover Alstom (often still old FIAT orders in cooperation with the other big 2) was able to deliver tilting trains to Spain, the Czech Republic, Germany, Great Britain, Slovenia and Finland and Russia (next year). Plus winning orders for non tilting trains that are based on the Pendolino's in Spain and China.

And that's indeed something different then gaining access to the Italian railway market with a prospect of winning some big high speed train orders in Italy.
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Old October 6th, 2009, 06:07 PM   #628
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Both are not exclusive and can be true at the same time. They could want to open new business with a niche product and technology they didn't master before and still expand their HST line. The TGVs were allready an established product and Alstom very well known for it. Tiliting technology on the other hand offers a new perspective, new business opportunity. Mostly because not every one country can build and operate a new HSL. It's therefore a good alternative to accelerate travel and reduce travel time on regular lines in a world obsessed with high mobility.



That's quite a normal policy and it's usual among rail and air business (that's also true in other type of businesses). That's what Bombardier did in Europe. They buy out many local constructors and factories there in order to have a foothole and compete equaly with indigenous producers. Nowadays Bombardier is one of the biggest European train manufacturer along with Alstom and Siemens.
I completely agree.
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Old October 6th, 2009, 06:15 PM   #629
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@disturbman,

Indeed.

Alstom bought the tilt technology to really own it, before they bought it they often worked together with FIAT on international orders and by buying it they would have it in their own hands. FIAT also worked together with other the other train builders, by taking it over Alstom could also ensure that the competitors didn't have access to it anymore most noticeably Siemens. After the takeover Alstom (often still old FIAT orders in cooperation with the other big 2) was able to deliver tilting trains to Spain, the Czech Republic, Germany, Great Britain, Slovenia and Finland and Russia (next year). Plus winning orders for non tilting trains that are based on the Pendolino's in Spain and China.

And that's indeed something different then gaining access to the Italian railway market with a prospect of winning some big high speed train orders in Italy.
Do you know that the CRH5 Alstom 600 series is a total fiasco?
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Old October 6th, 2009, 07:01 PM   #630
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Yes I know, Italian trains suck.

But for Alstom that wasn't a big problem, they kept producing the FIAT trains and even let the Italians design a new train that resulted in the problems of the ETR 600 and the CRH5.

btw, in 2000 the AGV was in the very early stages of development, there's no way that it had any influence on buying FIAT as you suggested in earlier post.
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Old October 6th, 2009, 08:52 PM   #631
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Originally Posted by LUCAFUSAR View Post
(......)
And this exports have really poor quality...look at the chinese CRH5, the dead Cisalpino's ETR (currently known as Cessoalpino i.e. Alpine w.c.). What a fantastic achievement for we italians...AnsaldoBreda shit, Alstom Ferroviaria shit...i have to continue? The glorious italian railway industry is DEAD because of poor quality and political matters. Typical italian shit. The only italian (good) railway firm is FIREMA, based in Caserta, but it is too small to compete against Alstom, Bombardier, Siemens, Talgo, CAF and the japanese firms (Kawasaki, Hitachi, etc.).
I do not agree with that.
I don't know yet what's the matter with chinese CRH5's, but as far as i know Pendolino-derived trainsets are not that bad-performing (italian shit?!?.....), whatever country they were sold to (with the sole exception of ETR470's "cesso"alpino....).
And just for the record, Pendolinos can be found in:
Portugal
Spain
Germany
Switzerland
Czech Republic
Britain
Finland
And of course Italy, where problems are due to the well-known lack of proper maintenance, rather than to the train itself...

About the Alstom's takeover of Fiat Ferroviaria, it's worth to remember that in late-90's in Savigliano there were studies about a trainset capable of 300 kph top speed and active tilting. It was called "Superpendolino".... and if ever built it could seriously jeopardize TGV's market perspective.
So with a very wise move (from the French point of view.....) Alstom took the double opportunity to fill a hole it had in its catalogue and to wipe out the shade of a very dangerous competitor....
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Old October 6th, 2009, 09:51 PM   #632
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Yes I know, Italian trains suck.

...
No. Why Bombardier's rail vehicles built in Vado Ligure don't suck? Why the ONLY stuff built after Alstom's takeover sucks? I don't count the ETR470 because the problems are due to the poor maintenance. The only ex/FIAT stuff with problems is the finnish VR Pendolino because of low temperatures and difficult couplings...the rest of the other 500 sold Pendolinos has good reiability. The ETR run on the Italian traditional tracks since 1976 and occurred only two accidents (in 1997 entering Piacenza station due to a too high speed limit and in 1998 in Firenze station, officially due to a driver error) and very few reiability problems. The only problems occurred are quite totally due to the crappy maintenance...so, why the ONLY stuff built after Alstom's takeover sucks? Answer: Alstom doesn't give a s..t to Alstom Ferroviaria. They bought FIAT Ferroviaria only to "kill" a potential competitor.

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But for Alstom that wasn't a big problem, they kept producing the FIAT trains and even let the Italians design a new train that resulted in the problems of the ETR 600 and the CRH5.
What the hell are you talking about? The ETR600 project is quite totally managed by french engineers!!!!!!!!!!The complete bogies come from La Rochelle's facilities!!!!!!!! It'll be the same for the ETR500!!!!!!!!! How can you say that Alstom "let the Italians design a new train that resulted in the problems of the ETR 600 and the CRH5"? The ETR600 is an Alstom product, not an Alstom Ferroviaria product. So you are blaming Alstom's inability to grant and keep high quality levels in all its facilities and on all its products! Or, are the problems all-italians'-fault?

Quote:
btw, in 2000 the AGV was in the very early stages of development, there's no way that it had any influence on buying FIAT as you suggested in earlier post.
I hope that the AGV will be a great train, too!

Last edited by LUCAFUSAR; October 7th, 2009 at 11:31 PM.
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Old October 6th, 2009, 09:54 PM   #633
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I do not agree with that.
I don't know yet what's the matter with chinese CRH5's, but as far as i know Pendolino-derived trainsets are not that bad-performing (italian shit?!?.....), whatever country they were sold to (with the sole exception of ETR470's "cesso"alpino....).
And just for the record, Pendolinos can be found in:
Portugal
Spain
Germany
Switzerland
Czech Republic
Britain
Finland
And of course Italy, where problems are due to the well-known lack of proper maintenance, rather than to the train itself...

About the Alstom's takeover of Fiat Ferroviaria, it's worth to remember that in late-90's in Savigliano there were studies about a trainset capable of 300 kph top speed and active tilting. It was called "Superpendolino".... and if ever built it could seriously jeopardize TGV's market perspective.
So with a very wise move (from the French point of view.....) Alstom took the double opportunity to fill a hole it had in its catalogue and to wipe out the shade of a very dangerous competitor....
In Finland there are problems, also. I agree with you on the Alstom/FIAT matter. However you didn't understand my post at all.

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Old October 6th, 2009, 11:56 PM   #634
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Look, you are not absolutely wrong, but it's just not as simple as you put it.

Alstom would never risk losing entry to the huge Chinese HSR market by selling them a bad train. And other Italian manufactures like AnsaldoBreda (too cheap) proof that Italian trains aren't as good as trains from some other manufactures from different European countries. That the big 3 sometimes have problems with some of their trains it's just logical. But if you compare AnsaldoBreda and Alstom Ferroviaria (only looking at it like an separate company for this comparison) with other smaller companies like CAF, Vossloh or Stadler Rail then it's becomes clear that the others don't have as many problems as the Italian ones.

The Vado Ligure factory has always been in foreign hands, that doesn't really count as Italian.
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Old October 7th, 2009, 01:42 AM   #635
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I must say, the conversation is starting to get off the way. Blaming problems encounters on some trains on the nationality of their maker is... hem... not welcome (to be polite).

Ansaldo Breda is having regular problems with their manufacturing because, well, they are not capable to offer what they say they could. They systematicaly out bid their opponents and then have regular problems to produce the said trains on schedule. They did it in LA, they did in Denmark and they did it again for the Fyras. Actually I don't know why anyone bother buying their trains after all the problems. But they are not the only one, they are not the first company to offer a service that they can't give. Might be because they put too much presion on themselves and don't have the encessary economical ressources to get on. Might be because they are italians... but I don't think so. It's a bit too simple.

As far as the CRH5 is concerned there is no real reason why this train should not work, after all the train is not even equiped with a tilting mechanism (wich is a sensitive technology) . As far as we know the allegated problem could be political... or coming from the chinese part of the deal... or the trains could be just crappy without any connection to their maker. That happens too.

And the ETR610, the trains were late to come, but the last time I heard from them they were working fine (they were taken out of service because of a safety system warning and were put on service the next day because everything was fine). Airbus and Boeing had problems with their products too (the 380 and 787 programs encountered loads of delays) why not a train maker?

The original problems might be that the french were too much involved in the process. They might not be as acquainted with the technology as the italian (Fiat) engineers are/were. Or the merger/absorption might not going so well (social or cultural problems...).

I can't really think that a company will bought another to let it rot to death. That's lost money and clearly not how you run a company in a modern and competitiv business environement.

The fact is, we don't why things are the way they are. Nobody have the infos.
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Old October 7th, 2009, 12:49 PM   #636
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That's very interesting. Are you sure? That means we'll see the new AGV and Zefiro compete head-to-head in Italy in a few years' time. Funny thing that, if you're right: the launch client for Zefiro was China. Next they sell it to Italy. How about the Canadians buying some of their own trains?
.
Yes, it looks like that. Most certainly Zefiro will be the new Italian HST. Probably Zefiro V300-V350 will be chosen. Unless TI decides to be brave by choosing the V380 version.
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Old October 7th, 2009, 12:51 PM   #637
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I must say, the conversation is starting to get off the way. Blaming problems encounters on some trains on the nationality of their maker is... hem... not welcome (to be polite).

Ansaldo Breda is having regular problems with their manufacturing because, well, they are not capable to offer what they say they could. They systematicaly out bid their opponents and then have regular problems to produce the said trains on schedule. They did it in LA, they did in Denmark and they did it again for the Fyras. Actually I don't know why anyone bother buying their trains after all the problems. But they are not the only one, they are not the first company to offer a service that they can't give. Might be because they put too much presion on themselves and don't have the encessary economical ressources to get on. Might be because they are italians... but I don't think so. It's a bit too simple.

As far as the CRH5 is concerned there is no real reason why this train should not work, after all the train is not even equiped with a tilting mechanism (wich is a sensitive technology) . As far as we know the allegated problem could be political... or coming from the chinese part of the deal... or the trains could be just crappy without any connection to their maker. That happens too.

And the ETR610, the trains were late to come, but the last time I heard from them they were working fine (they were taken out of service because of a safety system warning and were put on service the next day because everything was fine). Airbus and Boeing had problems with their products too (the 380 and 787 programs encountered loads of delays) why not a train maker?

The original problems might be that the french were too much involved in the process. They might not be as acquainted with the technology as the italian (Fiat) engineers are/were. Or the merger/absorption might not going so well (social or cultural problems...).

I can't really think that a company will bought another to let it rot to death. That's lost money and clearly not how you run a company in a modern and competitiv business environement.

The fact is, we don't why things are the way they are. Nobody have the infos.

I agree.
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Old October 7th, 2009, 12:59 PM   #638
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(.......)However you didn't understand my post at all.
That's true! Sorry for that.... I was tired....

@disturbman: I also agree..

@joseph: very brave.... Btw: thanks for the docs about Zefiro you posted. They came in handy.
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Old October 7th, 2009, 11:13 PM   #639
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Look, you are not absolutely wrong, but it's just not as simple as you put it.

1)Alstom would never risk losing entry to the huge Chinese HSR market by selling them a bad train. And other Italian manufactures like AnsaldoBreda (too cheap) proof that Italian trains aren't as good as trains from some other manufactures from different European countries. That the big 3 sometimes have problems with some of their trains it's just logical. But if you compare AnsaldoBreda and Alstom Ferroviaria (only looking at it like an separate company for this comparison) with other smaller companies like CAF, Vossloh or Stadler Rail then it's becomes clear that the others don't have as many problems as the Italian ones.

2)The Vado Ligure factory has always been in foreign hands, that doesn't really count as Italian.
1)My dear friend, Alstom manages the project ETR600/610/CRH5. These trains had/have problems. It's Alstom fault, not italians' fault. Period. The problem of AnsaldoBreda results of being too small to compete against the big 3. CAF and Talgo, for example, collaborate with Siemens, Bombardier and Alstom for the mecanical devices. AnsaldoBreda works ALL ALONE. There's a big difference. AnsaldoBreda is not incapable to grant satisfiable quality levels at all...AnsaldoBreda is incapable to grant a decent quality standard because of it is TOO SMALL to work ALL ALONE. In fact AnsaldoBreda is going to work in joint venture with Bombardier to produce the Zefiro trainsets...just like Talgo S/102 Pato which have the power cars manufactured in the Bombardier plants in Germany. For what concern the other italian trains: the problems at the wheels of the Minuettos trainsets have been solved, the only problems are on the ETR470 due to poor Treniraglia maintenance and on the finnish VR Pendolinos due to the very low temperatures. I know that the big 3 and CAF and Talgo make good trains...but sometimes they have problems too.

2)Well, also Alstom Ferroviaria is "in foreign hands" since 2000, so...

Last edited by LUCAFUSAR; October 7th, 2009 at 11:33 PM.
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Old October 7th, 2009, 11:19 PM   #640
LUCAFUSAR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disturbman View Post
I must say, the conversation is starting to get off the way. Blaming problems encounters on some trains on the nationality of their maker is... hem... not welcome (to be polite).

1)Ansaldo Breda is having regular problems with their manufacturing because, well, they are not capable to offer what they say they could. They systematicaly out bid their opponents and then have regular problems to produce the said trains on schedule. They did it in LA, they did in Denmark and they did it again for the Fyras. Actually I don't know why anyone bother buying their trains after all the problems. But they are not the only one, they are not the first company to offer a service that they can't give. Might be because they put too much presion on themselves and don't have the encessary economical ressources to get on. Might be because they are italians... but I don't think so. It's a bit too simple.

2)As far as the CRH5 is concerned there is no real reason why this train should not work, after all the train is not even equiped with a tilting mechanism (wich is a sensitive technology) . As far as we know the allegated problem could be political... or coming from the chinese part of the deal... or the trains could be just crappy without any connection to their maker. That happens too.

3)And the ETR610, the trains were late to come, but the last time I heard from them they were working fine (they were taken out of service because of a safety system warning and were put on service the next day because everything was fine). Airbus and Boeing had problems with their products too (the 380 and 787 programs encountered loads of delays) why not a train maker?

...

4)I can't really think that a company will bought another to let it rot to death. That's lost money and clearly not how you run a company in a modern and competitiv business environement.

...
1) 2)I completely agree.
3)The first ETR610 sets are on service since the end of july 09, but they can't go on the Gotthardbahn due to a too high load per axle.
4)Who knows?
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