daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old August 30th, 2013, 01:18 AM   #6421
Sopomon
Hideous and malformed
 
Sopomon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 870
Likes (Received): 153

Quote:
I'm curious as to which "entire sections" of HSR have been replaced due to poor construction quality? Also which next gen tech that China doesn't have to run the trains at 380km/h? China safely operated 350km/h trains for a couple of years, and everything was in place to start 380km/h service. The issues CRC faced regarding very high speed service were operating cost related, problems not yet conquered by Western OEMs.
I thought it was in that article, but perhaps not. 9 kilometres of line had to be replaced due to the sinking.


Quote:
Honest question, when did Kawasaki raise IP issue with CSR about CRH380A? Japan never exported >350km/h very high speed train technology to China and I don't think China can make a 250km/h train (max tested speed 362km/h) go 380km/h (max tested speed 486km/h) while continuingly use the same Japanese technology. If China wants to export CRH2, sure Kawasaki is justified to be mad, but not so for the 380A.

Seriously? The grumblings from Kawasaki are well documented and well-known.
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2013/04/15/china-japan/

Now as another aside, do look at the 380A and tell me it isn't a typical E2 carbody with an elongated nose and different paint scheme. The pantograph fins, the window constuction, the use of sliding rather than plug doors, the roof of the train and the cross-sectional shape of the carbody are all identical to the E2 model used in China. If the exterior is so similar, the interior workings are likely to be similar too. Kawasaki's anger is certainly justifiable.

Quote:
As a side note, make your point clear if you can, what is your point? Do you think China does not have the technology or is not developing it or does not have the ip of the tech it has or its infrastructure is bad???? What is it oo wait... all of above, right?
Let's try not to get immature, now. I never suggested that they do not have the technology now. They didn't have it before the great buy-out, though, as I had illustrated previously (the blue arrow et. al are more medium speed than high speed). Nor did I suggest that the technology was not being developed, of course it is.
What I was arguing was a follow on from M-NL's point that the rate of techological progress is highly suspect and there are justified questions about the legitimacy of China's claims to IP rights, especially on the 380A. The commentary on the infrastructure was further observation of the headlong rush that causes such questions of legitimacy and corner-cutting in construction.

On the videos? A respectable service passing a station and a video shot some years ago before the speed drops were implemented. I don't understand how they're relevant

As to your final point, the definition of 'lead' in these debates often tends to be very subjective and as such I'm not going to argue that, as we'll be running in circles.
__________________
And he kicked so many rosebushes at her that eventually, Sasuke turned into a log.

Last edited by Sopomon; August 30th, 2013 at 01:24 AM.
Sopomon no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old August 30th, 2013, 02:52 AM   #6422
Restless
Registered User
 
Restless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,170
Likes (Received): 271

The Fortune article you quoted from April 2013 is not very accurate.

It states:

...
"With more than 300 million annual riders, Japan's Shinkansen -- 50 years old next year -- trains carry more passengers than those of any other HSR system. "
...

Back in November 2012, the China HSR network was running at a rate of 485 million passengers per year - plus the average trip length is way longer in China.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
I thought it was in that article, but perhaps not. 9 kilometres of line had to be replaced due to the sinking.





Seriously? The grumblings from Kawasaki are well documented and well-known.
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2013/04/15/china-japan/

Now as another aside, do look at the 380A and tell me it isn't a typical E2 carbody with an elongated nose and different paint scheme. The pantograph fins, the window constuction, the use of sliding rather than plug doors, the roof of the train and the cross-sectional shape of the carbody are all identical to the E2 model used in China. If the exterior is so similar, the interior workings are likely to be similar too. Kawasaki's anger is certainly justifiable.



Let's try not to get immature, now. I never suggested that they do not have the technology now. They didn't have it before the great buy-out, though, as I had illustrated previously (the blue arrow et. al are more medium speed than high speed). Nor did I suggest that the technology was not being developed, of course it is.
What I was arguing was a follow on from M-NL's point that the rate of techological progress is highly suspect and there are justified questions about the legitimacy of China's claims to IP rights, especially on the 380A. The commentary on the infrastructure was further observation of the headlong rush that causes such questions of legitimacy and corner-cutting in construction.

On the videos? A respectable service passing a station and a video shot some years ago before the speed drops were implemented. I don't understand how they're relevant

As to your final point, the definition of 'lead' in these debates often tends to be very subjective and as such I'm not going to argue that, as we'll be running in circles.
Restless no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 03:09 AM   #6423
particlez
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 532
Likes (Received): 106

Short answer:

the original allegation of "buying" foreign technology = inability to conduct good original research is patently false.

Every upstart society has bought/copied/borrowed/stolen ideas from more technically advanced competitors. Present-day China isn't an anomaly. America 150 years ago, Japan 50 years ago, Korea in the very recent past. The critics accused America/Japan/Korea of being inferior and devoid of originality--yet these places were advancing--often faster than their counterparts, and were coming up with plenty of their own technical advances too.

It's generally more economically efficient to adapt/improve upon existing work than to start from ground zero. There's no real difference in the quality of the technical staff. Is Mazda/the Japanese auto industry second tier because it purchased Felix Wankel's engine design? "50 years of engineering leadership" means close to nothing when the modern-day workforce wasn't around 2 generations ago.

Then we get into the whole IP stuff. If you were a big shareholder in Siemens or Kawasaki, you'd have a vested interest. Otherwise, you'd most likely be motivated by some weird loyalty/contempt for the out-group. Might as well insist that every farmer/consumer pay Monsanto's inflated monopoly IP royalties.

The main point has so far been neglected. The idea is to actually implement HSR into the infrastructure grid--it's needed, it will be used, and it improves the standard of living. Instead of getting into a hissy fit over who built what first, ask why many locales have repeatedly used BS excuses to defer/postpone HSR?
__________________

ampera00, Pansori, dao123 liked this post
particlez no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 03:56 AM   #6424
ampera00
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 67
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez View Post
Short answer:

the original allegation of "buying" foreign technology = inability to conduct good original research is patently false.

Every upstart society has bought/copied/borrowed/stolen ideas from more technically advanced competitors. Present-day China isn't an anomaly. America 150 years ago, Japan 50 years ago, Korea in the very recent past. The critics accused America/Japan/Korea of being inferior and devoid of originality--yet these places were advancing--often faster than their counterparts, and were coming up with plenty of their own technical advances too.

It's generally more economically efficient to adapt/improve upon existing work than to start from ground zero. There's no real difference in the quality of the technical staff. Is Mazda/the Japanese auto industry second tier because it purchased Felix Wankel's engine design? "50 years of engineering leadership" means close to nothing when the modern-day workforce wasn't around 2 generations ago.

........
To this statement: "Every upstart society has bought/copied/borrowed/stolen ideas from more technically advanced competitors" , I might add 'kidnapping'. The 'competition to kidnap' German scientists after WW2 between the west and the russian is well documented and legendary. Just ask Wernehr Von Braun cs.
The perception of poor quality of 'made in japan' product was still prevalent in the 70. Made in Korea/Taiwan in the 80 and early 90. I am glad that those are THE PAST ..... Good for them.
I do hope China, India etc will do the same, keep marching forward....
ampera00 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 04:12 AM   #6425
foxmulder
Registered User
 
foxmulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,135
Likes (Received): 382

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
I thought it was in that article, but perhaps not. 9 kilometres of line had to be replaced due to the sinking.





Seriously? The grumblings from Kawasaki are well documented and well-known.
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2013/04/15/china-japan/

Now as another aside, do look at the 380A and tell me it isn't a typical E2 carbody with an elongated nose and different paint scheme. The pantograph fins, the window constuction, the use of sliding rather than plug doors, the roof of the train and the cross-sectional shape of the carbody are all identical to the E2 model used in China. If the exterior is so similar, the interior workings are likely to be similar too. Kawasaki's anger is certainly justifiable.



Let's try not to get immature, now. I never suggested that they do not have the technology now. They didn't have it before the great buy-out, though, as I had illustrated previously (the blue arrow et. al are more medium speed than high speed). Nor did I suggest that the technology was not being developed, of course it is.
What I was arguing was a follow on from M-NL's point that the rate of techological progress is highly suspect and there are justified questions about the legitimacy of China's claims to IP rights, especially on the 380A. The commentary on the infrastructure was further observation of the headlong rush that causes such questions of legitimacy and corner-cutting in construction.

On the videos? A respectable service passing a station and a video shot some years ago before the speed drops were implemented. I don't understand how they're relevant

As to your final point, the definition of 'lead' in these debates often tends to be very subjective and as such I'm not going to argue that, as we'll be running in circles.
So let me summarize your point: "380km/h class trains China has developed are just copies and are running at those speeds without any technological development from the CRH2 series." Am I right?

Any high speed rail fun should enjoy those videos... That sound is intoxicating My point is the trains are "ferraris used on track" not on new jersey suburbs' roads

For the "leader", I just look at numbers, that's all.
__________________

Pansori liked this post
foxmulder no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 04:27 AM   #6426
Pansori
planquadrat
 
Pansori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London - Vilnius
Posts: 9,973
Likes (Received): 6911

I wouldn't rely on sources like Fortune once it comes to technicalities of a very specific industry. Are there any insightful articles written by industry professionals (NOT 'analysts' or 'experts') which discuss technology issues in China's HSR development?
Pansori no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 06:37 AM   #6427
k.k.jetcar
Registered User
 
k.k.jetcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Sapporo
Posts: 1,812
Likes (Received): 452

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
I wouldn't rely on sources like Fortune once it comes to technicalities of a very specific industry. Are there any insightful articles written by industry professionals (NOT 'analysts' or 'experts') which discuss technology issues in China's HSR development?
Indeed, I'd like to see articles from technical journals published by Chinese railway research institutions (Japanese example here) or manufacturers be linked here, or translations of such. It's much better to see the info "straight from the horse's mouth", rather than filtered through the mass media, which almost always gets railway technical details wrong (the American press being one of the worse offenders, save perhaps the Wall Street Journal).
k.k.jetcar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 09:06 AM   #6428
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,980
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
...
"With more than 300 million annual riders, Japan's Shinkansen -- 50 years old next year -- trains carry more passengers than those of any other HSR system. "
...

Back in November 2012, the China HSR network was running at a rate of 485 million passengers per year - plus the average trip length is way longer in China.
Were these 485 million passengers carried between a date in November 2011 and same date in November 2012, or between 1st of January, 2012 and a date in November 2012?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 09:50 AM   #6429
Sopomon
Hideous and malformed
 
Sopomon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 870
Likes (Received): 153



On Fortune: I was only using it to illustrate that Kawasaki was indeed unhappy with the use of its IP in China. The technical details don't necessarily need to be correct for something like that.

@foxmulder

Quote:
Am I right?
No. Not everything is in absolutes, you know. There is clearly some Chinese input to the design, or else it wouldn't have reached 486 km/h. Was that input simply to tune the motors though? A new motor type? We don't know.

@particlez

Intellectual property is a very important concept and the laws surrounding it need to be held sacred. If firms know that their goods don't have any IP protection, then they will stop producing new goods at all. If you take the pharmaceutical industry:
Without strongly enforced drug patents, no new drugs would be developed. Why spend billions of dollars researching new medicines when all of the potential future profits you could make would taken within months by a competitor who has managed to make a cheap copy of your drug?

Absolutely it's part of society moving forward, the need to copy and regurgitate, but what has happened in this industry was nothing short of foul play.


It's probably best to leave this as it is anyway, the subject has changed too many times, and we're running in circles. Until there is less secrecy in the Chinese railways, it's all conjecture anyway, and no-one knows anything for sure.
__________________
And he kicked so many rosebushes at her that eventually, Sasuke turned into a log.
Sopomon no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 09:53 AM   #6430
Bandit
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 435
Likes (Received): 6

How much of the Japanese culture is actually from China? When do they pay royalties?
Bandit no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 10:28 AM   #6431
China Hand
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 705
Likes (Received): 161

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
I thought it was in that article, but perhaps not. 9 kilometres of line had to be replaced due to the sinking.
It's not even clear that was due to 'poor construction quality'. It could have been excess rain, ground water elevation, or other factors.

Subsidence, not collapse.

Keep in mind the tolerance is 2 or 3 MM of subsiding is good, 4 mm is BAD. When you go 350kph, you have to keep the bed precisely to spec or else hunting oscillation and other nasties crop up in a hurry.

This was one incident, and rectified very quickly.
__________________

Pansori liked this post
China Hand no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 10:29 AM   #6432
Restless
Registered User
 
Restless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,170
Likes (Received): 271

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Were these 485 million passengers carried between a date in November 2011 and same date in November 2012, or between 1st of January, 2012 and a date in November 2012?
The figure I saw was an average of 1.33million passengers per day back in Nov 2012.

So November is an "average" month without any crazy holiday periods, and that was over a year ago.
Restless no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 10:34 AM   #6433
China Hand
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 705
Likes (Received): 161

undefined
China Hand no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 12:43 PM   #6434
Restless
Registered User
 
Restless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,170
Likes (Received): 271

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post


On Fortune: I was only using it to illustrate that Kawasaki was indeed unhappy with the use of its IP in China. The technical details don't necessarily need to be correct for something like that.

@foxmulder



No. Not everything is in absolutes, you know. There is clearly some Chinese input to the design, or else it wouldn't have reached 486 km/h. Was that input simply to tune the motors though? A new motor type? We don't know.

@particlez

Intellectual property is a very important concept and the laws surrounding it need to be held sacred. If firms know that their goods don't have any IP protection, then they will stop producing new goods at all. If you take the pharmaceutical industry:
Without strongly enforced drug patents, no new drugs would be developed. Why spend billions of dollars researching new medicines when all of the potential future profits you could make would taken within months by a competitor who has managed to make a cheap copy of your drug?

Absolutely it's part of society moving forward, the need to copy and regurgitate, but what has happened in this industry was nothing short of foul play.


It's probably best to leave this as it is anyway, the subject has changed too many times, and we're running in circles. Until there is less secrecy in the Chinese railways, it's all conjecture anyway, and no-one knows anything for sure.
We do know that the Chinese had to undertake the following R&D aspects to increase the speed of the train.

Motor Changes
Window Strengthening
Pantograph Changes
Bogey/Wheel Changes

So the redesign of the trainset has to account for the differences in aerodynamics and new equipment

Supercomputer modelling the entire redesign for new electrical/thermal/mechanical stresses, and strengthening the appropriate components.

Mechanical testing of the new design.

The R&D principles are the same for other trains, ships, planes and cars which China has been doing for over a decade now. So it's a case of the R&D guys gaining specific experience on HSR.
Restless no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 03:36 PM   #6435
k.k.jetcar
Registered User
 
k.k.jetcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Sapporo
Posts: 1,812
Likes (Received): 452

Quote:
We do know that the Chinese had to undertake the following R&D aspects to increase the speed of the train.
Yes, but this is still conjecture on forums until we see some documentation, such as a specific journal/newspaper article, press release, or even a company advertisement.

Quote:
Bogey/Wheel Changes
I'm interested in this, as wheels are critical component in high speed trainsets. What improvements were made? Were they improved from the wheelsets supplied by say, Sumitomo Metals, which were regarded so highly that even Deutsche Bahn signed a contract with them to supply wheelsets for the ICE trainsets for three years?
k.k.jetcar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 05:14 PM   #6436
foxmulder
Registered User
 
foxmulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,135
Likes (Received): 382

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post


On Fortune: I was only using it to illustrate that Kawasaki was indeed unhappy with the use of its IP in China. The technical details don't necessarily need to be correct for something like that.

@foxmulder



No. Not everything is in absolutes, you know. There is clearly some Chinese input to the design, or else it wouldn't have reached 486 km/h. Was that input simply to tune the motors though? A new motor type? We don't know.

@particlez

Intellectual property is a very important concept and the laws surrounding it need to be held sacred. If firms know that their goods don't have any IP protection, then they will stop producing new goods at all. If you take the pharmaceutical industry:
Without strongly enforced drug patents, no new drugs would be developed. Why spend billions of dollars researching new medicines when all of the potential future profits you could make would taken within months by a competitor who has managed to make a cheap copy of your drug?

Absolutely it's part of society moving forward, the need to copy and regurgitate, but what has happened in this industry was nothing short of foul play.


It's probably best to leave this as it is anyway, the subject has changed too many times, and we're running in circles. Until there is less secrecy in the Chinese railways, it's all conjecture anyway, and no-one knows anything for sure.
Oh man this is exactly like this:

http://youtu.be/gUFSobtvydo?t=9m
__________________

Pansori liked this post
foxmulder no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 05:54 PM   #6437
Sopomon
Hideous and malformed
 
Sopomon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 870
Likes (Received): 153



I'm beginning to think you personally misconstrue what I wrote to further your own views.

Oh well.
__________________
And he kicked so many rosebushes at her that eventually, Sasuke turned into a log.

Last edited by Sopomon; August 30th, 2013 at 06:04 PM.
Sopomon no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 07:42 PM   #6438
foxmulder
Registered User
 
foxmulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,135
Likes (Received): 382

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post


I'm beginning to think you personally misconstrue what I wrote to further your own views.

Oh well.
I am definitely not trying to misconstrue what you are saying. I am trying to further my own views, though -naturally.

If you think by just tuning engines and with a new nose crh2 can go from 250m/h to 380km/h then your knowledge seems pretty limited even as an amateur observer such as myself. There is a documentary about Beijing-Shanghai high speed rail line. Even in that simple DC documentary they point numerous developments that are done for CRH380A compared to previous models. Now, if you do not "believe" those... there is not much to discuss. Since there were no tech transfer from Kawasaki for reaching higher speeds and they sold the tech for 250km/h crh2 series how can they claim any ip on CRH380A???
__________________

Pansori liked this post
foxmulder no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 07:59 PM   #6439
admns
Registered User
 
admns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: hanoi
Posts: 22
Likes (Received): 3

Hangzhou - Xiamen - Shenzhen HSR Line



Construction is completed in august 15 and expected to open in the end of this year or before the next spring festival.

Fare: Xiamen to Shenzhen full fare 190 yuan. Hangzhou and Shenzhen full fare is about 440 yuan.

Last edited by admns; August 30th, 2013 at 08:22 PM.
admns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2013, 08:52 PM   #6440
FM 2258
Registered User
 
FM 2258's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Austin
Posts: 5,438
Likes (Received): 612



A 250km/h line with CRH5's?
FM 2258 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
china, high speed rail

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium