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Old September 29th, 2013, 03:31 AM   #6561
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So animals boarding CRH are ok like dogs and cats? how about goats?
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Old September 29th, 2013, 06:36 AM   #6562
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Old September 29th, 2013, 03:04 PM   #6563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
read the full article
Speedy Trains Transform China
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=6483
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Old September 29th, 2013, 05:45 PM   #6564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
Speedy Trains Transform China

CHANGSHA, China — The cavernous rail station here for China’s new high-speed trains was nearly deserted when it opened less than four years ago.

Not anymore. Practically every train is sold out, although they leave for cities all over the country every several minutes. Long lines snake back from ticket windows under the 50-foot ceiling of white, gently undulating steel that floats cloudlike over the departure hall. An ambitious construction program will soon nearly double the size of the 16-platform station.

Just five years after China’s high-speed rail system opened, it is carrying nearly twice as many passengers each month as the country’s domestic airline industry. With traffic growing 28 percent a year for the last several years, China’s high-speed rail network will handle more passengers by early next year than the 54 million people a month who board domestic flights in the United States.

continued
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/24/bu...ewanted=1&_r=0
Ghost Cities.

Whilst there is a great deal of accuracy to building something where no one will move, in Zhengzhou NC the story differs. This area E and NE of downtown, was gleaming, new and totally deserted 4 years ago when I visited. I was dropped off at a bus station, many cities in China have 3-6 bus stations, in the middle of nowhere. Dust blew across the completely empty 8 lane by 6 lane intersection as I walked 500m to catch the bus that went E, then N, then W and finally into downtown.

It was, however, also 500 m from the new CRH junction.

That was before the ZGO CRH station opened with the line from Xian-ZGO and Beijing-Shenzhen.

Fast forward to this year and the empty buildings and streets are no longer as the massive CRH station has attracted hundred's of thousands of people to the NC area E and NE of Zhengzhou.

Traffic, businesses and people living in those empty buildings.
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Old September 29th, 2013, 05:59 PM   #6565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laojang View Post
Here is a link to a picture which, in my opinion, symbolizes the sharp
contrast of China's economy today. One can see not only a HSL (perhaps 350km/h standard) near completion, but also a donkey pulling a cart with supplies. Credit bbs.railcn.

http://bbs.railcn.net/thread-1154220-1-1.html

Laojang
It's overstated. I would have to travel 2 or 3 hours, go up in the hills, and specifically look for very small villages to possibly find a donkey pulling a cart. More likely is that the family has one, or several, e-Trikes or gas powered, 3 wheeled motorbikes up to 30 feet long, like a 3-wheel truck.

Anyone who could afford a draft animal could afford to buy a vehicle, and if they could not afford an animal they are still ploughing the fields by hand themselves, one person yoked and one guiding the plough.

Not fiction, seen it once or twice but it is rapidly disappearing.

Very rapidly.
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Old September 29th, 2013, 06:14 PM   #6566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Are you saying the Maglev is a grand succes now compared to 2007?
The point is people starting to drop white elephant claim.
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Old September 29th, 2013, 08:37 PM   #6567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
The point is people starting to drop white elephant claim.
yes, "A white elephant is an idiom for a valuable but burdensome possession of which its owner cannot dispose and whose cost (particularly cost of upkeep) is out of proportion to its usefulness or worth."

Most of the western media love to over emphasize "empty" to train and "ghost" to city and over emphasize the "white elephant" and missing the part of "positive" outlook. Certainly, they are not totally wrong in empty train or ghost city however over time people will use it and ghost city will become filled again as China government start to build high speed train station into that city.
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Old September 29th, 2013, 08:49 PM   #6568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
The point is people starting to drop white elephant claim.
Mentioning the maglev is not what you should do to make that point. It is still a prestige waste of billions as long as they don't extend it to Lujiazui, the center, and Hongqiao.
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Old September 29th, 2013, 09:35 PM   #6569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Anyone who could afford a draft animal could afford to buy a vehicle, and if they could not afford an animal they are still ploughing the fields by hand themselves, one person yoked and one guiding the plough.
I suspect that pic was specially posed. What is the guy doing at the back of the trolley? Even the caption says in Chinese WTF?


Quote:
Originally Posted by laojang View Post
Here is a link to a picture which, in my opinion, symbolizes the sharp
contrast of China's economy today.
And IMO symbolises the sharp wit of Chinese bloggers.
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Old September 29th, 2013, 10:09 PM   #6570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Mentioning the maglev is not what you should do to make that point. It is still a prestige waste of billions as long as they don't extend it to Lujiazui, the center, and Hongqiao.
Its not cool you are only focusing on maglev and ignoring the point. The point stands.

If you want to talk about positives and negatives of the maglev, we can talk about that too, but still that is not the point.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 02:39 AM   #6571
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Mentioning the maglev is not what you should do to make that point. It is still a prestige waste of billions as long as they don't extend it to Lujiazui, the center, and Hongqiao.
yes, I somewhat agree mentioning "the maglev" opening a "hole" in a debate that allow other to attack on it and thanks for mentioning it. However I do agree with foxmulder the point is stand.

The reason i use the maglev link because I don't want to spend too much time in finding the right article link from the "authority source" (new york times, cnn, forbes etc) around that time "2007-2008". All I can remember, they "love" to dampen the "spirit" of high speed train by over emphasize "empty" train.

So, both of you guys are right
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Old September 30th, 2013, 05:16 PM   #6572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billwe View Post
yes, "A white elephant is an idiom for a valuable but burdensome possession of which its owner cannot dispose and whose cost (particularly cost of upkeep) is out of proportion to its usefulness or worth."

Most of the western media love to over emphasize "empty" to train and "ghost" to city and over emphasize the "white elephant" and missing the part of "positive" outlook. Certainly, they are not totally wrong in empty train or ghost city however over time people will use it and ghost city will become filled again as China government start to build high speed train station into that city.
There is also the Sunk Cost Fallacy, whereby someone says:

"Well, I have spent this much money and time on this I may as well continue a little while longer, see it through, and get some small return."

Instead cutting and starting over is best.

However as we see, CRH and the GaoTie is packed and latent demand rears its head again.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 05:19 PM   #6573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xinxingren View Post
I suspect that pic was specially posed. What is the guy doing at the back of the trolley? Even the caption says in Chinese WTF?

And IMO symbolises the sharp wit of Chinese bloggers.
May have been posed, but I have seen twice just that scene. Dad or Mom pulling the plough yoked in, and the other guiding it.

Not often, but once or twice in my travels all over China.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 06:10 PM   #6574
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Very interesting picture laojang, love it http://bbs.railcn.net/thread-1154220-1-1.html
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Old September 30th, 2013, 09:22 PM   #6575
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Its not cool you are only focusing on maglev and ignoring the point.
YOU mentioned the Maglev.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 10:38 PM   #6576
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The press on Chinese HSR has been all over fair, with some more critical (e.g. WSJ) and others more enthusiastic (like this NYT). After Wenzhou there was an increased concern on safety.

Yes, there is a subtext, particularly in the US. This period has overlapped with Obama's presidential period, initially with plans to build HSR in the US as well. The articles ostensibly about China were really strikes in a proxy war on domestic transport affairs. Likewise any report on the British National Health System would picture it as a death trap or miracle cure, not based on the system's qualities, but the writer's stance on Obamacare.

That said, both the positive reports (fast, shiny, modern) and the negative ones (expensive) have had their points, at least the well-researched ones. The criticism (again the good one) wasn't that nobody would use it, but that the money could be spent more effectively in a developing society with substandard infrastructure and above standard needs.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 11:12 PM   #6577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
The press on Chinese HSR has been all over fair, with some more critical (e.g. WSJ) and others more enthusiastic (like this NYT). After Wenzhou there was an increased concern on safety.

Yes, there is a subtext, particularly in the US. This period has overlapped with Obama's presidential period, initially with plans to build HSR in the US as well. The articles ostensibly about China were really strikes in a proxy war on domestic transport affairs. Likewise any report on the British National Health System would picture it as a death trap or miracle cure, not based on the system's qualities, but the writer's stance on Obamacare.

That said, both the positive reports (fast, shiny, modern) and the negative ones (expensive) have had their points, at least the well-researched ones. The criticism (again the good one) wasn't that nobody would use it, but that the money could be spent more effectively in a developing society with substandard infrastructure and above standard needs.
The press was mainly negative prior to 2011-2012. Virtually all so-called 'analytical' reports were negative for sure: Too expensive, too much debt, empty trains, empty stations, unaffordable for the poor (as if it is elsewhere??), revenues from tickets too low (somewhat contradicting the 'unaffordable' argument) and so on and so forth. Almost every aspect of China's HSR boom was 'bad'. After the Wenzhou accident it became the 'core' of the whole anti-Chinese-HSR media tirade. They kept repeating it in EVERY single article for at least a year or so. And there were quite a few of those.

After that (around late 2012 I suppose) there was almost complete silence on China's HSR expansion in the Western media. This was most probably due to the fact that most of the lines (let alone the main ones) were actually very busy (if not completely packed) and the revenues from tickets were quite good. That is not mentioning the fact that it almost literally transformed travel in China overnight and demonstrated what was perhaps the biggest leapfrog in the history of transportation as such. There simply was no way to post anything negative once this became way too evident even to a Western reader. Hence the silence. Now some newspapers might well drop an occasional 'positive' article in an 'as if nothing happened' fashion.

The reality is that the HSR development in China over the past 8 years or so was a colossal success unprecedented in the history of transportation and it was too clear from the very beginning.

Last edited by Pansori; September 30th, 2013 at 11:18 PM.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 11:26 PM   #6578
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The press was mainly negative prior to 2011-2012. Too expensive, too much debt, empty trains, empty stations, unaffordable for peasants (as if it should be??), revenues from tickets too low (somewhat contradicting the 'unaffordable' argument) and so on. After the Wenzhou accident it became the 'core' of the whole anti-Chinese-HSR media tirade. They kept repeating it in EVERY single article for at least a year or so. And there were quite a few of those.

After that (around late 2012 I suppose) there was almost complete silence on China's HSR expansion. This was most probably due to the fact that most of the lines (let alone the main ones) were actually very busy (if not completely packed) and the revenues from tickets were quite good. That is not mentioning the fact that it almost literally transformed travel in China overnight and demonstrated what was perhaps the biggest leapfrog in the history of transportation as such. There simply was no way to post anything negative once this became way too evident even to a Western reader. Hence the silence. Now some newspapers might well drop an poccasional 'positive' article as 'if nothing happened'.
What a wonderfully skewed world view, where the (Western) media are evil, spiteful monsters out to get the poor, poor Chinese.

Come on, grow a pair.

There were plenty of journalists writing negative things about Chinese HSR, because
1. It's journalist's job to be critical. Just blindly praising doesn't do people any good.
2. Negative news sells. Yes, no matter how horrible this is, 'journalists' publish negative news, often without much knowledge about the subject matter, because they want to make money.

Now, there have been some negative stories on Chinese HSR in some Western media, stories which I, because I know a bit about HSR, knew were largely nonsense, but there were also critical stories that had good points and still do (mainly surrounding the enormous amounts of debt because of all the building, etc., which are points to be careful with). But I have also seen many, many, many EXTREMELY positive stories about Chinese HSR in all kinds of Western media.
Why some people here might think the Western media are/were unfairly negative about Chinese HSR is probably because there have been some people here who continually posted every single negative/critical story ever published in Western media, but never any of the positive ones, and this is how you get a skewed world view.
It seems extremely popular with some people on this forum to think that China is this poor little kitten that is totally mistreated by the evil pit-bull that is the Western media. You gotta wake up and realize China is no longer the "sick man of Asia", but just a very smart, powerful country. China doesn't need to be treated with silk gloves, and journalists SHOULD be critical. If you gather proper information yourself, you can easily weed out the bullshit sensationalist articles by journalists trying to sell product, and perhaps you can steer away from this weird thinking that everybody is conspiring against China.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 11:55 PM   #6579
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^lolz

That Maglev is somehow symbolic of failure--the various xenophobes, transit haters, and austerians will forever dredge it up. In reality, the Maglev works, but was derailed (no pun intended) by irrational Nimbyism. I'm not sure if the opposition was sincere or was the product of an astroturf campaign, and it's a very small issue in the long run.

Re: the western media and Chinese HSR. You guys are delusional if you think the mainstream media in the US (and any number of aligned foreign nations) was going to be objective regarding the Chinese HSR. Media companies like the NYTimes and the WSJ are de facto PR outlets for their various sponsors. Banks, real estate, insurance, pharmaceuticals, oil, military. Why else would the mainstream media clamor for war, clamor for bank bailouts, yet ignore or dismiss calls for infrastructure or social spending? Mind you, plenty of media in the US does have the greater good in mind, but we're talking about the NYTimes and the WSJ and any number of high-profile, outwardly glamorous companies. Amy Goodman and Matt Taibbi just aren't quoted here.

The latest NYTimes article is a 180 degree turnaround, but it comes AFTER the Chinese HSR's implementation and empirical value. It's easy to say a proposal won't work. It's difficult to cite a functioning, efficient, and productive investment and twist it into a negative.

Take a gander at this old NYTimes article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/23/wo...ht-letter.html

Do some advanced searches on the internet. Look for articles more than a few years old. They're overwhelmingly negative.

This brings up another point: Why the hell would the WSJ and the NYTimes focus on a foreign HSR project? After all, they won't have any influence in China. In this case, they harnessed their domestice audience's latent xenophobia, economic miseducation, and historical amnesia to disparage some irrelevant foreign subject. The writer of the article is Michael Pettis, former d_____bag for disgraced Bear Stearns. There are many domestic opponents of HSR in the US. Oil companies and airlines are obvious vested interests. The finance industry (of which M. Pettis was a glorified salesman) wanted US bailout money in the hands of "wealth creators" who could then use that money to flip commodities and pay themselves. Spending valuable resources to actually help plebeians goes against their economic sensibilities.

And really now, would the US have developed properly without its historically large investments in railways, interstates, etc.? It's as if the WSJ, NYTimes, and a bunch of other supposedly "objective" media outlets are banking on their audience being amnesiacs and idiots.

You can get angry at the media. They've subverted the ideals of the fifth estate and exchanged them for advertising dollars. You should get even more angry at the credulous audience for lapping up these instances of bad journalism. The articles were never about railways in China. The articles were about influencing their domestic audience's attitudes.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 12:05 AM   #6580
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As far as I know, 200km/h lines are not included.
I think they actually include those newly constructed 200km/h lines, because the vast majority of them are designed as 250km/h lines and only artificially limited to 200km/h. So by definition they are proper HSRs.
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