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Old October 7th, 2009, 11:24 PM   #641
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That's true! Sorry for that.... I was tired....

@disturbman: I also agree..

@joseph: very brave.... Btw: thanks for the docs about Zefiro you posted. They came in handy.
Zefiro380 for Treniraglia? Maybe...i hope that Treniraglia will get it.
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Old October 8th, 2009, 10:48 PM   #642
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So... back to China.

I am really curious what China is going to do with all these technologies.

Remember, although China is synonymous with "Cheap, exported crap" when it comes to manufacturers, you have to realize that this does not apply to domestic markets the same way.

Many things exported from China wouldn't meet domestic consumers standards (at least the middle class in China won't buy them). An interesting book to read is "Poorly Made in China" for an insight into how manufacturing works in China.

For the most part, the focus of manufacturing in China is squeezing profits after you've got the business and have the distributor on a leash by gradually cutting corners.

Many forget when "Made in Japan" was synonymous with cheap cars and calculators that didn't work. For the most part, however, it was because their economy was based on exporting cheap stuff. This may have been partly due to American protectionism and "guidance" as there were fears Japan would return to producing high (military) technology, but also partly because their country was in ashes after WWII. Japan DID, however, produce high quality stuff (look at Japanese cameras of the 50s which were excellent) but most of it was domestic as people wouldn't pay what it was worth outside the country. They used this time to perfect mass production, becoming the world's model to follow.

When Japan was discovered to be producing high quality products, this bias slowly disappeared and "Made in Japan" quickly became synonymous with high quality goods. Interestingly, the domestic market in Japan still usually gets the higher quality goods, because there is a slight bias that Japanese consumers are more selective and willing to pay for quality. There is probably some truth to this, though.

A similar thing happened when England, over 100 years ago, who required ALL imports to be stamped with the country of origin because of cheap German goods that could damage local markets. It turned around and "Made in Germany" became a brand unto itself ("Merchandise Marks Act", 1887).

Anyway, back to China. I wonder if that's China's goal... to have a coming out party and showcase "Made In China" as a bastion of high quality goods, copying the Japanese and German model. They seem to be choosing the same route to this as Japan and Germany did, though their execution is slightly different. They also have to be more cautious, as they are perceived more as a threat than as a competitor.
Anyhow,
  • they're building ( and designing ) new trains for their domestic market.
  • They're planning on exporting cars.
  • They hosted an Olympic Games ( hmmm... Tokyo 1964 )


Wonder when China's coming out party will happen and how the world will react...
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Old October 9th, 2009, 12:40 AM   #643
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Let's keep the discussion on trains, it's not really the right section to discuss the developments of the entire Chinese manufacturing industry.

But when it comes to High Speed Trains it won't be long until China will come with it's own train that is completely their own. With all the trains they have bought from Europe and Japan, all in a cooperation between foreign and Chinese train builders they've gotten hold of all the technology that is needed to design one new 100% Chinese train. And that's a good strategy, there's no need for every company in every country to reinvent the wheel over and over again.

It's also positive for the European and Japanese builders, because they know that sooner or later the Chinese train builders will catch up anyway. Until then they can profit from the big Chinese orders, developing these trains is expensive and the local markets in Europe and Japan are limited in size. With the big Chinese orders they can earn back the costs and get all the technological feedback they need to make the trains even better. Plus with all the cooperations the European and Japanese companies probably won't be completely cut out of the Chinese market when they don't necessarily need the foreign technology anymore.

As for exports, if China really wants to sell their trains to the rest of the world they need to be able to produce good quality trains for a low price. Especially since the shipping costs to get your new train from the factory to the customers on the other side of the world are so high they need to be so cheap in order to be able to compete with the European manufactures that don't have significant transportation costs since the trains can be delivered straight away from the factory gate to the railway company. This is also one of the reasons for the current cooperations with the Chinese manufactures for the trains for China. Only a standard gauge rail connection completely trough safe countries would make it more easy and less expensive to transport the trains to Europe.

In other words, if Chinese companies really want to enter the European market they need to open up some European factories. And that is something for the future, unless the Chinese railway industry goes actively shopping for European train builders or just for single factories that are being closed.

It will be interesting to see what is going to happen, it's not impossible for the Chinese companies to come out and start to make an impact on the world market. It happened to Japan, it's happening right now with South Korea, China could just be next.
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Old November 14th, 2009, 11:25 PM   #644
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China´s Transrapid Copy: CF-08

The International Maglev Board found a pretty impressive new picture from the Chinese "Dolphin" project which aimes to develop a Transrapid-like High Speed Maglev:



Source: http://magnetbahnforum.de/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7164

The picture is from 2008-11-27 and shows the chinese CF-08 Maglev which is based on the Transrapid system from Germany operating in Shanghai.

There is much speculation about the features and level of development of the new maglev train and the issue of intellectual property rights but for sure this train proves the chinese interest in their ability to independently construct high speed maglev systems.
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Old November 15th, 2009, 02:56 PM   #645
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i also wonder in how far the shown maglev is related to this one




also a chinese made high speed maglev, which has been tested at the tongji university near shanghai.
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Old November 15th, 2009, 11:13 PM   #646
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I don't see any outstanding questions on the intellectual property front at all

China has had at least 2 maglev development programmes since before 2000, and in Jan-2009, Transrapid agreed to "the transfer of parts of the core technologies from Germany for the maglev railway projects in China."



The full article is below:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...t_10734898.htm

BERLIN, Jan. 29 (Xinhua) -- China and Germany on Thursday signed a memorandum of understanding on the transfer of parts of the core technologies from Germany for the maglev railway projects in China.


This undated file photo shows a maglev. China and Germany on Thursday signed a memorandum of understanding on the transfer of parts of the core technologies from Germany for the maglev railway projects in China.

The deal was signed by Wu Xiangming, president of the Shanghai Magnetic Transportation Development Co. and Hans Christoph Atzpodien, chairman of Germany's Thyssen Krupp Technology.

The agreement was among six deals signed by the two sides during Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao's official visit to Germany.

Zhang Ping, minister in charge of the Chinese National Development and Reform Commission, signed an agreement on cooperation in climate protection with Sigmar Gabriel, Germany's environment minister.

The two countries also clinched deals covering cooperation in the car industry, construction of Chinese ecological city Xuzhou, and exchanges between museums of the two countries.

The signing ceremony was witnessed by Merkel and Wen, who arrived in Berlin late Wednesday.

Later Thursday, Wen will attend a forum on Sino-German economic and technical cooperation and deliver a speech.

Cooperation between China and Germany, both export-driving nations, is of special significance amid the ongoing financial and economic crisis, said a joint statement by the two leaders.

Germany is the second leg of Wen's European tour after Switzerland, where he attended the annual meeting of the World Economic Forum (WEF). The trip will also take him to the European Union headquarters, Spain and Britain.
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Old November 16th, 2009, 12:22 AM   #647
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@ Knuddel Knutsch
The vehicle you posted is the first dolphin vehicle. It is called CMT 1. As far as I know two sections of this train have been ordered and built.

The CF-08 train on the picture above is the successor of CMT 1 and the first chinese vehicle designed for speeds up to 500 km/h. Unfortunately there are no videos of the train in action.

@ Restless
There is no company called "Transrapid" which can agree to anything. Transrapid vehicles are manufactured at Thyssen and the propulsion system is manufactured at Siemens. Thyssen agreed to transfer some parts of the vehicle technology but the licences only where for use in China and ONLY in case of a go for the Hangzhou extension. Since the chinese got the knowhow nobody talked again about an extension to Hangzhou. So at least some of the know how is not fully legal.

Anyway it is no secret that the chinese only bought the Transrapid system to learn from it and learning means copy. If not in a direct way, at least in an indirect way. Look at the route and end points of the Shanghai Maglev. It is nearly useless, it is only for tourists and technology experience. The same year when construction of the Shanhai maglev started, China launched the dolphin project which aimed to construct a Transrapid-like high speed maglev. So from the first moment it was the plan to copy Transrapid and everybody knows that. Just look at the dolphin trains and you know that 50% of them is Transrapid. It is well known that chinese engineers extensively studied the vehicles and propulsion system of Transrapid.

Don´t get me wrong, I like the dolphin trains and I hope that China succeeds in filling up the missing parts with their own ideas and eventually can start construction of new maglev lines. This would be a big step for China´s transport- and hightech sector and it would prove the usefullness of maglev to the world.
Germany and Japan have been great in inventing maglev technology but they failed in putting the technology into the market. I think China will do it and it may be the first time that China shows the world the way in an important technological sector.

I´m sure the US, Brasil and all the others going the old fashioned way without vision and courage for new ideas will regret their decisions for building high speed rail instead of maglev tracks. Japan is already constructing their 310 mph-Maglev from Tokyo to Osaka and China will do the same.

It is funny that nobody in the railway sector here in the forum talks about maglev. And this despite the fact that the future of travel above 300 km/h lies in maglev. No country in the world managed to operate high speed rail above 300 km/h in an economically useful condition. Spain stopped plans to go 350 km/h and China - the only country in the world operating at 350 km/h only uses 5 trains at that speed - for prestige reasons. The rest of the train fleet goes 300 km/h or less.

Last edited by Papagei; November 16th, 2009 at 12:31 AM.
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Old November 16th, 2009, 12:53 AM   #648
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No country in the world managed to operate high speed rail above 300 km/h in an economically useful condition.
France has two lines at 320km/h, and I see no reason why Spain won't achieve 350km/h when it sorts out the signalling system - a signalling system which is causing problems all over Europe as it is brand new. Normal rail will incrementally get faster. But I think it will complement Maglev. Once sorted Maglev will be brilliant, but even if the technical stuff is sorted out it still can't use existing infrastructure to get into city centres, or to provide the occasional service to less populated areas. Its unfortunate for Maglev that because rail already exists in most places it will only be used when the need is really great.

I would love to see a Moscow - Warsaw - Berlin - Koln - Brussels - London / Paris Maglev one day though.
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Old November 16th, 2009, 12:23 PM   #649
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Originally Posted by Papagei View Post

It is funny that nobody in the railway sector here in the forum talks about maglev. And this despite the fact that the future of travel above 300 km/h lies in maglev. No country in the world managed to operate high speed rail above 300 km/h in an economically useful condition. Spain stopped plans to go 350 km/h and China - the only country in the world operating at 350 km/h only uses 5 trains at that speed - for prestige reasons. The rest of the train fleet goes 300 km/h or less.
Several of the new lines under construction in China, including Wuhan-Guangzhou and Shanghai-Beijing will be run at 350km/h when operational...It's not a prestige thing, it's making rail competitive with airline travel, which it will be at those speeds (Beijing to Shanghai will be a 4.5h trip when the new line is complete, which compares favourably with plane travel when the rigmarole associated with going to the airport is taken into account).
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Old November 16th, 2009, 07:38 PM   #650
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As far as I know Spain stopped plans to go faster than 300 km/h. There is a statement from a ministre claiming this I´m looking for it. The reason was not the signalling system but wear and tear or the costs caused by it.

China is constructing its new hsr-lines for 350 km/h but that doesn´t mean they use it and it doesn´t mean that it is economically useful to bear the high costs for wear and tear. The costs grow exponentially by speed wheras trip time doesn´t change very much between 300 and 350 km/h.

Japan had great plans with their fastech 360 which was intended to run 360 km/h. They stopped plans to go that fast for safety- and economic reasons. Now they changed to maglev. We all know that 350 km/h is possible, but the costs are too high.

You are right, the big disadvantage of maglev is that it needs new tracks into the city centres. But why then we see so many countries building new hsr-tracks into City centres!? That is the same price maglev would cost but it is a naturally limited technology which has reached it´s limit in the innovation cycle. Britain built their high speed one for several bln pounds. China is building new city tracks, Brasil and the US plan new hsr-tracks into the cities. Why? I simply believe that the people who decide don´t really know about hsr, maglev, innovative potential etc. They just build hsr because in the past many countries did. Of course hsr is great and it is doing a great job, but maglev would serve the countries even better.
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Old November 16th, 2009, 10:40 PM   #651
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Brazilian delegation visits German High Speed Maglev Testing facility and is deeply impressed" by MAGLEV technology


"A Brazilian delegation of experts has visited the Transrapid test track in Lathen, Emsland (Germany) on Monday and gathered first hand information about possible applications of the maglev train in their country. The delegation was "deeply impressed" by the technology, said the head of the Delegation, Prof. Cyro Laurenza, after an extensive test ride.

Brazil has also been researching about maglev technology, "but what we have experienced here today is so exceptional that people in our country will hardly believe what we will report", Prof. Cyro Laurenza was quoted as saying.

Of particular interest is that the Transrapid can handle slopes of up to ten percent, said Laurenza. Railroads would need to be constructed with elaborate zigzags if they are to cross the mountains. Here the Maglev would offer interesting new aspects.

The Brazilian government is considering the use of magnetic levitation trains for the soccer World Cup in 2014."

Source: International Maglev Board
http://magnetbahnforum.de/phpBB2/vie...?p=36274#36274
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Old November 16th, 2009, 10:47 PM   #652
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I would be interested to see that statement from the spanish politician, because I read many rail periodicals and I've not heard of that. I fear you seem to be generalising a few things though. Many of the criticisms about wear and tear being uneconomic at higher speeds were levelled at rail travel after the second world war going beyond 200km/h, yet progress has been made and to date I see no signs of it halting at 300km/h.

China only has one line capable of 350km/h, and this is so short that the trains only stay at this top speed for a few minutes before it has to slow down again. Between Beijing and Tianjin this means that adding 50km/h to top speed only adds about 5km/h to the average speed. Once the network is more mature then we'll see.

Japan was always up against the fact it didn't build its line for 360km/h, so it had to use a lot of tilt. This I believe is a major factor in their decision to scale it back to 320km/h for the E5 and E6.

Many countries have built HSR into city centres, true, but this has been done on a case by case basis - not by necessity. It is more than a little unfair to suggest that the designers and builders of HSR are simply following the herd.

Japan - had no choice due to opting for standard guage.
China - is building new everything and then some. They didn't have much to start with.
Britain had to build HS1 as existing routes from the south east are saturated commuter routes and quite pathetic for a high speed train.
France hasn't built HSR into city centres, apart from a couple of places like Lille. Same story in Germany, Belgium, and Italy. Spain has a bit more, but again Spain is starting from a low coverage by rail so there is less infrastructure to use.

Not only all this but the city centre thing is not the whole story. As I mentioned before Maglev does not allow use on legacy infrastructure to get to less popular destinations. Look at the map below - every pink line is a TGV route, but only some lines are LGVs. Thanks to the fact that TGVs can run on classic lines TGVs serve about 3 times the route miles as they could if they were Maglev.

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Old November 16th, 2009, 11:33 PM   #653
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Here is the article about spanish ministre of transportation Magdalena Alvarez claiming that speed of spanish high speed tracks is going to be limited to 300 km/h.
German Wikipedia says that the infrastructure corporation in spain, ADIF, fears too high wear and tear for their tracks.

http://www.lavanguardia.es/premium/p...turbourl=false

I think it is great that we have all those rail tracks but they don´t mean that there can´t be a maglev on the high speed routes. Both perfectly fit togheter, the older rail tracks for travel into small cities all over the country and the high speed maglev tracks for high speed travel between big centres. They just have to be well connected in intersection points.

If France had built maglev lines instead of the LGV-routes and had only used rail on the non LGV-routes, travel would be faster and cheaper due to lower maintenance costs. Of course France never will built a maglev, they don´t have the technology and TGV/AGV is something very patriotic in France but from a technical perspective maglev would be a good option.
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Old November 17th, 2009, 12:28 AM   #654
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....
Anyway it is no secret that the chinese only bought the Transrapid system to learn from it and learning means copy. If not in a direct way, at least in an indirect way. Look at the route and end points of the Shanghai Maglev. It is nearly useless, it is only for tourists and technology experience. The same year when construction of the Shanhai maglev started, China launched the dolphin project which aimed to construct a Transrapid-like high speed maglev. So from the first moment it was the plan to copy Transrapid and everybody knows that. Just look at the dolphin trains and you know that 50% of them is Transrapid. It is well known that chinese engineers extensively studied the vehicles and propulsion system of Transrapid.

...

Don´t get me wrong, I like the dolphin trains and I hope that China succeeds in filling up the missing parts with their own ideas and eventually can start construction of new maglev lines. This would be a big step for China´s transport- and hightech sector and it would prove the usefullness of maglev to the world.
Germany and Japan have been great in inventing maglev technology but they failed in putting the technology into the market. I think China will do it and it may be the first time that China shows the world the way in an important technological sector.
The only way the german MAglev Technology will be usefull is if some massively populated LARGE country (two things wich germany is not) decides to create a large network with such technology.

The criteria for futher usage of such technology on a 1/5th of the population country is nowhere near the boundaries of a simple technology licencee (thus here comes the technology transfer) ... the Siemens (as a group) has much more to gain by allowing such technology transfers to China.

Quote:
I´m sure the US, Brasil and all the others going the old fashioned way without vision and courage for new ideas will regret their decisions for building high speed rail instead of maglev tracks. Japan is already constructing their 310 mph-Maglev from Tokyo to Osaka and China will do the same.

It is funny that nobody in the railway sector here in the forum talks about maglev. And this despite the fact that the future of travel above 300 km/h lies in maglev. No country in the world managed to operate high speed rail above 300 km/h in an economically useful condition. Spain stopped plans to go 350 km/h and China - the only country in the world operating at 350 km/h only uses 5 trains at that speed - for prestige reasons. The rest of the train fleet goes 300 km/h or less.
Rail based technology is in no way inferior to the maglev technology.

There is no significant economic penalty for the usage of trains at above 300km/h in any conventional rail capable of doing so.


The ERTMS level 2/3 is not even fully deployed in any european HSR network ... plans for 350km/h trains in "daily usage" are in the making everywhere.

The problem with the Japanese shinkansen is precisely that it is "not that great" as some people try to make it apear (tokaido has a 255km/h limit for conventional rail and 270km/h for tilting trains) ... in europe HSR sections are not "systems" but merely sections of conventional rail with a greater speed limit ... in the USA the "true" HSR routes are still in the domain of mith and dreams.

Economically in europe there is no reason to build dedicated maglev routes in the next centuries ... the "standards" for travel are well met by the wheel-on-rail at 1435mm ... anything above 600/900km away is perfecty in the reach of regional air travel and in tlhe limits of conventional rail (even maglev).

Another question never answered by the so called maglev apologists is that while a proper 350+ conventional-rail HSR would/could be economically developed (dinamics and other such things play a key factor in HSR consumption of electricity and thus in it's management) ... a maglev route would ever be under the blindfolding pressure of the electrical bill (since there is no levitation without current).
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Old November 17th, 2009, 12:28 AM   #655
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Wear and tear won't be as much as a problem for Chinese tracks since they use solid concrete tracks with no loose stones, as opposed to almost everywhere else. One of the main reasons they chose this more expensive construction material was because of the possibility for higher speeds and less maintenance required, in fact China will soon test a 500 km/h train and I wouldn't doubt that 400 km/h trains will enter into regular service in China by 2025.
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Old November 17th, 2009, 11:30 AM   #656
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I think it is great that we have all those rail tracks but they don´t mean that there can´t be a maglev on the high speed routes. Both perfectly fit togheter, the older rail tracks for travel into small cities all over the country and the high speed maglev tracks for high speed travel between big centres. They just have to be well connected in intersection points.
Thanks for the link.

Unfortunately the point about maglev into large centres and HSR into small ones misses the point that travellers generally really dislike interchanging between modes. Maglev will only work once volumes on HSR between large centres exceed the existing HSR capacity, and Maglev is required in parallel, such as in Japan. This is why no country has opted for Maglev before HSR. It is not because they are missing the piont of Maglev, its precisely because they understand it.

Quote:
If France had built maglev lines instead of the LGV-routes and had only used rail on the non LGV-routes, travel would be faster and cheaper due to lower maintenance costs. Of course France never will built a maglev, they don´t have the technology and TGV/AGV is something very patriotic in France but from a technical perspective maglev would be a good option.
Maglev is not any cheaper to maintain. It doesn't have any moving parts, but neither does a space shuttle - moving parts is not what causes cost.

If France had built a maglev to Lyon instead of the LGV Sud-Est then the popularity would have been much reduced. Everyone who wanted to travel between Paris and Dijon / Marseille / Nice / French Alps / Switzerland / Italy would have needed to stay on the painfully slow classic trains, and Maglev would have been a fantastic white elephant for the benefit of only the people of Lyon.

I am all for Maglev, and I can't wait to see it happen properly somewhare. But it must be recognised that Maglev has little to do with rail. They are different forms of transport and, due to history, they have a completely different set of requirements for effective implementation. It is especially important for the future of Maglev that people who wish to see it do not confuse the issue comparing apples with oranges, and making bold statements suggesting that the engineers all across the world don't know what they are doing building successful and profitable high speed railways.

It must also be pointed out that the concern about the increase wear and tear vs increase in speed happens by exactly the same relationship at lower speeds. The axle loads are key issue with track maintenance. TGVs are 17t per axle, but Japan has got its new N700 series down to 11t per axle. If 320km/h is operationally fine for France with 17t axle, then an 11t per axle train could easily achieve 350km/h with the same wear and tear. This will only continue to get better.

Last edited by makita09; November 17th, 2009 at 11:38 AM.
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Old November 17th, 2009, 02:38 PM   #657
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Wear and tear won't be as much as a problem for Chinese tracks since they use solid concrete tracks with no loose stones, as opposed to almost everywhere else. One of the main reasons they chose this more expensive construction material was because of the possibility for higher speeds and less maintenance required, in fact China will soon test a 500 km/h train and I wouldn't doubt that 400 km/h trains will enter into regular service in China by 2025.
Auhhh,
The faster you go the more wear and tear happens because you are grinding the rail against the steel wheel.
Faster speed means larger amount of energy transferred meaning more heat.
The tracks are marred by the steel wheels at corners and needs to be gridded down periodically to maintain a smooth surface or the train faces potential derailment.
Also the faster speed at corners means more energy transfer to the rail spurs that are holding down the rail which again needs to be periodically refastened so it does not become loose.
That is why maintenance is much more critical for HSR.
There is also the issue of wear and tear of the overhanging power wires as well.
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Old November 17th, 2009, 04:57 PM   #658
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I wonder if there are more pictures available of the chinese high speed magles than just the two that have been posted here.....
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Old November 17th, 2009, 10:05 PM   #659
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Auhhh,
The faster you go the more wear and tear happens because you are grinding the rail against the steel wheel.
Faster speed means larger amount of energy transferred meaning more heat.
The tracks are marred by the steel wheels at corners and needs to be gridded down periodically to maintain a smooth surface or the train faces potential derailment.
Also the faster speed at corners means more energy transfer to the rail spurs that are holding down the rail which again needs to be periodically refastened so it does not become loose.
That is why maintenance is much more critical for HSR.
There is also the issue of wear and tear of the overhanging power wires as well.

In Europe (and in Japan too) the railroads are older, when they built they didnt think for 350km/h.

In China they do.

If they are designed for 350km they must handle it otherwise construction is not what has been promised. Everything is considered, naturally. Angle of the curves, quality of the rail, ballastless track.... All of this to handle that speed.

why do you guys argue this I cannot understand... If a skyscraper told to be 500m you wont argue this right? you cannot tell no it will be 350m they cannot build 500m..!
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Old November 19th, 2009, 03:08 AM   #660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Auhhh,
The faster you go the more wear and tear happens because you are grinding the rail against the steel wheel.
Faster speed means larger amount of energy transferred meaning more heat.
The tracks are marred by the steel wheels at corners and needs to be gridded down periodically to maintain a smooth surface or the train faces potential derailment.
Also the faster speed at corners means more energy transfer to the rail spurs that are holding down the rail which again needs to be periodically refastened so it does not become loose.
That is why maintenance is much more critical for HSR.
There is also the issue of wear and tear of the overhanging power wires as well.
true, but it's easier to go over 350km/h with ballastless track because the loose stones won't hit the train, which Japanese thought was a danger above that speed. The maintenance will provide a lot of jobs for Chinese, you know we have a huge population and everyone needs to get employed
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