daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 19th, 2009, 03:37 AM   #661
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,433
Likes (Received): 325

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Auhhh,
The faster you go the more wear and tear happens because you are grinding the rail against the steel wheel.
Faster speed means larger amount of energy transferred meaning more heat.
The tracks are marred by the steel wheels at corners and needs to be gridded down periodically to maintain a smooth surface or the train faces potential derailment.
Also the faster speed at corners means more energy transfer to the rail spurs that are holding down the rail which again needs to be periodically refastened so it does not become loose.
That is why maintenance is much more critical for HSR.
There is also the issue of wear and tear of the overhanging power wires as well.
It doesn't matter ...


With "true" HSL you need to build entirely new INTERURBAN routes ... but can save on URBAN acesses here and there ... and you can use the same HST to serve multiple "conventional" routes at the same time.
(sidenote: the japanese shinkansen works there like a maglev route would work in europe ... don't forget that)

With MAGLEV you would need to connect START to STOP ... and only those places with a terminal would even benefit from the higher speeds.
(and notice that contrary to some other placesin europe there are very few places where such route would be viable ... not many of those have distances long enough as to need trains bypassing intermediate stops at high speed)


Example A) Tokio-Osaka = congested enough that no matter what you put there it will fill up to capacity ... but then again ... a frequency of 15tph is still not achieved there nowadays.

Example b1) Little route in Europe (randomly I choose my own 300km long route) = 6tph (2 HSR , 4 regional) ... planned additional HSL (4tph or more)

Example B2) Congested route in europe (randomly WCML in the UK also with 300km) = 12tph+ ... a paralell 360km/h HSL would merelly DOUBLE the capacity of the actually route ... a MAGLEV would need to serve 4 or 5 intermediate stops ... how much do you think that will cost the infraestructure of a 300km long route with HighSpeed deviations at every 50/100 km ??? how eficient would be the operation of such a route ???


With conventional HSR you just put some crossings here and there ... with maglev (german stile) you need to slowly move the entire trackbed ... the japanese system is somewhere in between.


Looking from above (as in being unbiased) it seem clear that as much as the german system is a complete segregation from the current wheel-on-rails system ... the japanese system can be easily used as a next-evolutionary-step above 300/400 km/h HSR.
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old November 19th, 2009, 03:39 AM   #662
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,433
Likes (Received): 325

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
In Europe (and in Japan too) the railroads are older, when they built they didnt think for 350km/h.

In China they do.

If they are designed for 350km they must handle it otherwise construction is not what has been promised. Everything is considered, naturally. Angle of the curves, quality of the rail, ballastless track.... All of this to handle that speed.

why do you guys argue this I cannot understand... If a skyscraper told to be 500m you wont argue this right? you cannot tell no it will be 350m they cannot build 500m..!
What are you talking about here ???


HSL above 300km/h are all NEW routes ... it doesn't matter if it's in europe or asia ...
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2009, 05:43 AM   #663
foxmulder
Registered User
 
foxmulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,135
Likes (Received): 382

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
What are you talking about here ???


HSL above 300km/h are all NEW routes ... it doesn't matter if it's in europe or asia ...
Read the previous posts, then if you cannot see what i am talking about, read again..
foxmulder no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2009, 04:56 PM   #664
Tri-ring
Expert
 
Tri-ring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 459
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
In Europe (and in Japan too) the railroads are older, when they built they didnt think for 350km/h.

In China they do.

If they are designed for 350km they must handle it otherwise construction is not what has been promised. Everything is considered, naturally. Angle of the curves, quality of the rail, ballastless track.... All of this to handle that speed.

why do you guys argue this I cannot understand... If a skyscraper told to be 500m you wont argue this right? you cannot tell no it will be 350m they cannot build 500m..!
I wrote my post based on the law of energy conservation and Newton's second law of motion, Observed from an inertial reference frame, the net force on a particle is equal to the time rate of change of its linear momentum: F = d(mv)/dt. Since by definition the mass of a particle is constant, this law is often stated as, "Force equals mass times acceleration (F = ma): the net force on an object is equal to the mass of the object multiplied by its acceleration.".

ALL HSR undergoes massive maintenance of tracks because of marring of tracks and loose spur inspection, ballastless track or otherwise because of the massive stress it undergoes.
Tracks are replaced periodically because of the wear and tear and the terms get shorter as speeds goes higher.
It's all high school physics.
__________________
banned for denial of war crimes in world war 2.
Tri-ring no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2009, 05:28 PM   #665
foxmulder
Registered User
 
foxmulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,135
Likes (Received): 382

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
I wrote my post based on the law of energy conservation and Newton's second law of motion, Observed from an inertial reference frame, the net force on a particle is equal to the time rate of change of its linear momentum: F = d(mv)/dt. Since by definition the mass of a particle is constant, this law is often stated as, "Force equals mass times acceleration (F = ma): the net force on an object is equal to the mass of the object multiplied by its acceleration.".

ALL HSR undergoes massive maintenance of tracks because of marring of tracks and loose spur inspection, ballastless track or otherwise because of the massive stress it undergoes.
Tracks are replaced periodically because of the wear and tear and the terms get shorter as speeds goes higher.
It's all high school physics.
wowoww.. you are a genius.. so this basic physic you are talking about skipped from engineers' minds huh? Dont worry dude about wear and tear. If they can send a man to space they can handle building a railroad track. When they were building 300km/h track did you argue against it too? I guess that time you were saying "200km/h is enough, wear and tear will be tooooo much with 300km/h"

geez!
foxmulder no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2009, 08:23 PM   #666
UD2
A very cool person
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,294
Likes (Received): 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
In Europe (and in Japan too) the railroads are older, when they built they didnt think for 350km/h.

In China they do.

If they are designed for 350km they must handle it otherwise construction is not what has been promised. Everything is considered, naturally. Angle of the curves, quality of the rail, ballastless track.... All of this to handle that speed.

why do you guys argue this I cannot understand... If a skyscraper told to be 500m you wont argue this right? you cannot tell no it will be 350m they cannot build 500m..!
China didn't think 350KM/h when they designed their tracks either. Many of the regular tracks that were laid in China before 2000 weren't even capable of 160. And these tracks had to be upgradedo once again after the year 2000 when the trains were planned to speed up to 250km/h. But 250 is the max that the existing tracks could handle, even after complete upgrades.

The high speed lines were all recently planned, designed and built tracks based largly on elevated pathways.
__________________
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed" - President Eisenhower
UD2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2009, 08:41 PM   #667
foxmulder
Registered User
 
foxmulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,135
Likes (Received): 382

Quote:
Originally Posted by UD2 View Post

The high speed lines were all recently planned, designed and built tracks based largly on elevated pathways.
I was talking about these lines anyway
foxmulder no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2009, 09:32 PM   #668
Knuddel Knutsch
******
 
Knuddel Knutsch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 438
Likes (Received): 286

Is this thread about high-speed-rail vs maglev or about the chinese version of the transrapid maglev?

I still wonder, if that thing really works, or if its not more than a 1:1 mockup of the planned home-grown maglev.


I dont want to start a discussion about copyrights, because we already had that. From my point of view, china should build that damned maglev train, and if they are able to do that by themselves....why not.

Its more than 25 years ago, that the Germans made the Transrapid06, the first full scale high speed maglev, able of running at 400 kmh and above in everyday service.
Damn it, thats a quarter of a century. China really should be able to do the same by now.

1983 Rollout of Transrapid 06
1987 Transrapid 06 hits 400kmh on a regular test run on the test-track in emsland for the first time
__________________
Sub des Tages

Last edited by Knuddel Knutsch; November 19th, 2009 at 09:40 PM.
Knuddel Knutsch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2009, 04:11 PM   #669
Papagei
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 26
Likes (Received): 0

@ Sotavento

Quote:
The only way the german MAglev Technology will be usefull is if some massively populated LARGE country (two things wich germany is not) decides to create a large network with such technology.
This is not true. There are many connections in Germany which are well suited for maglev. For example Berlin-Hamburg or Munich-Stuttgart-Frankfurt-Cologne. Those connections are served by high speed trains today mainly because contructrion started before maglev was ready to implement.
Don´t forget: Maglev reaches twice the speed of the mentioned connections, so more people would use it.
Do you really believe the state of Germany would have invested $ 2 bln into a transportation technology which is not usefull in Germany?
All the features of Transrapid (highly banked curves, high acceleration, high speed, low noise) perfectly fit into a country like Germany with many mountains and high population density.

Quote:
Rail based technology is in no way inferior to the maglev technology.

There is no significant economic penalty for the usage of trains at above 300km/h in any conventional rail capable of doing so.
Great words, but completely wrong as many studies from Germany and Japan show.
In fact the opposite is true. In any connection examined in studies, the economic benefit of maglev grows by speed and the intersection point between maglev and high speed rail is around 300 km/h. Above that speed lifecycle costs of maglev are lower than for high speed rail. So the problem is not that high speed rail can´t do 350 km/h or even 400 km/h. The problem is that it is NOT economically useful and thats why no country in the world does 350 km/h in broad service using hsr.

Quote:
Economically in europe there is no reason to build dedicated maglev routes in the next centuries ... the "standards" for travel are well met by the wheel-on-rail at 1435mm ... anything above 600/900km away is perfecty in the reach of regional air travel and in tlhe limits of conventional rail (even maglev).
You believe you can predict the next centuries? I´d be happy to be able to predict the next ten years!
The standards for travel aren´t well met by existing high speed rail in europe because they don´t exist. You can always get better and the fact that still 90% of travel are done by car shows that high speed rail is good but far away from perfect. In Germany you get the same averagy speed traveling by car or by ICE. Maglev would give you twice the average speed and this means that many people would stop their car and ride the train.

Quote:
Another question never answered by the so called maglev apologists is that while a proper 350+ conventional-rail HSR would/could be economically developed (dinamics and other such things play a key factor in HSR consumption of electricity and thus in it's management) ... a maglev route would ever be under the blindfolding pressure of the electrical bill (since there is no levitation without current).
Maybe you should get back on earth now and take a look into reality of physics:
- You may notice that maglev has better aerodynamics than high speed rail.
- You may notice that because of that Transrapid consumes less energy than any high speed rail of the same speed above 300 km/h.
- You may read that levitation of transrapid comsumes aproximately as much energy as the air conditioning of the vehicle consumes.
- You may notice that a 350+ hsr is still a dream no where in use over the world but there is a maglev train in Shanghai running 430 km/h+ in every day service providing the highest relyability of all high speed systems in the world.


@ Makita 09
Quote:
Unfortunately the point about maglev into large centres and HSR into small ones misses the point that travellers generally really dislike interchanging between modes. Maglev will only work once volumes on HSR between large centres exceed the existing HSR capacity, and Maglev is required in parallel, such as in Japan. This is why no country has opted for Maglev before HSR. It is not because they are missing the piont of Maglev, its precisely because they understand it.
Maglev can be used in any case a new high speed system is starting construction. It can replace any high speed rail there is no need for bypasses.
You know that high speed rail also doesn´t serve small cities. It does exactly the same maglev does, it is only slower.

Quote:
Maglev is not any cheaper to maintain. It doesn't have any moving parts, but neither does a space shuttle - moving parts is not what causes cost.
Maybe you should read some studies and comparisons before claiming things like that. Of course maglev also needs maintenance. But the new track designs are planned to last 80 years without replacements of main parts. High speed rails are replaced every 5-10 years. Axles of trains are replaced every 2 years. Overhead wires and connectors are frequently replaced.
You can find many points against maglev, especially the costs and compatibility but maintenance is one of the strongest and in germany well measured arguments for maglev.

Quote:
I am all for Maglev, and I can't wait to see it happen properly somewhare. But it must be recognised that Maglev has little to do with rail. They are different forms of transport and, due to history, they have a completely different set of requirements for effective implementation.
Maglev is not very different from high speed rail. It is just a different guidance system, everything else is the same. It does high speed in train shape at high comfort underlying the same physics of aerdodynamics and accelerations trains experience. You can use maglev in any place high speed rail is used. You may pay more for construction because you have to build new stations but you get more performance and lower maintenance cost.

Quote:
It must also be pointed out that the concern about the increase wear and tear vs increase in speed happens by exactly the same relationship at lower speeds. The axle loads are key issue with track maintenance. TGVs are 17t per axle, but Japan has got its new N700 series down to 11t per axle. If 320km/h is operationally fine for France with 17t axle, then an 11t per axle train could easily achieve 350km/h with the same wear and tear. This will only continue to get better.
Wear and tear doesn´t rise linear by speed unfortunately it rises by square from a certain point of speed. France had to repair the track after their 583 km/h TGV world record run at a price of more than 10 mio €! And this after one single train with 3 cars passed through! This is ok for a record run but not in every day service.


@ All
Let´s get back to the chinese maglev. Does anyone know more about the CF-08? When is it going to be tested ar high speed?
Papagei no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2009, 04:32 PM   #670
JoKo65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,111
Likes (Received): 86

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papagei View Post
@ Sotavento

This is not true. There are many connections in Germany which are well suited for maglev. For example Berlin-Hamburg or Munich-Stuttgart-Frankfurt-Cologne.
Frankfurt–Cologne is the most frequent connection in Germany, much more frequent than Hamburg–Berlin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Papagei View Post
Those connections are served by high speed trains today mainly because contructrion started before maglev was ready to implement.
[…]
Construction of Frankfurt–Cologne began in the 90ies. Maglev was ready at this time.
__________________
L'Amerique? C'est l'évolution de la barbarie à la décadence, sans toucher la culture.
JoKo65 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2009, 02:15 AM   #671
makita09
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,536
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papagei View Post
Maglev can be used in any case a new high speed system is starting construction. It can replace any high speed rail there is no need for bypasses.
You know that high speed rail also doesn´t serve small cities. It does exactly the same maglev does, it is only slower.
High Speed Trains do serve lots of areas on the old networks. Not in Japan, not in Taiwan, but they do in France, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, Austria, China etc etc. This is the point I've been trying to make to you.

Quote:
Maybe you should read some studies and comparisons before claiming things like that. Of course maglev also needs maintenance. But the new track designs are planned to last 80 years without replacements of main parts. High speed rails are replaced every 5-10 years. Axles of trains are replaced every 2 years. Overhead wires and connectors are frequently replaced.
All of this I know and I have read many studies. It all comes down to the point above. A $50bn HSR where the routes covered are 40% HSR and 60% classic line (to use France as a model) generates a far higher revenue than if the HSR trains only stayed on the HSR. To build a maglev to serve those areas it has to be 2.5 longer as it can't use classic routes.

Like for like maglev is cheaper maintenance perhaps, but reality is not like for like in many places. There happen to be 150 years of old railway lines out there ready to use as links, temporary routes and lightly served connections. The capital costs are much higher for maglev to get to as many people as HSR can for equivalent investment.

Quote:
Wear and tear doesn´t rise linear by speed unfortunately it rises by square from a certain point of speed.
Yeah I know, but as you have all the maths knowledge you could have crunched the numbers and seen that the ratio in axle weight between the TGV 17t and the Japanese 11t is greater than the square ratio of 320km/h and 350km/h. My point stands.

Quote:
France had to repair the track after their 583 km/h TGV world record run at a price of more than 10 mio €! And this after one single train with 3 cars passed through! This is ok for a record run but not in every day service.
IIRC considerable damage was done on the previous TGV record, but not so on the 2007 record.
makita09 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2009, 08:45 AM   #672
Tri-ring
Expert
 
Tri-ring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 459
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
wowoww.. you are a genius.. so this basic physic you are talking about skipped from engineers' minds huh?
geez!
No they probably made theoretical analysis and planned a schedule for maintenance of tracks with estimates for budget procurement purposes.
I really do not understand why it is hard to understand that a system like this requires periodic maintenance to keep it running.
__________________
banned for denial of war crimes in world war 2.
Tri-ring no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2009, 03:06 AM   #673
HunanChina
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Changsha
Posts: 265
Likes (Received): 5

[CRH] Total:1068km, Wuhan-Guangzhou(350km/h) is coming [China]

[CRH] Total:1068km, Wuhan-Guangzhou(350km/h) is coming [China]

Date: December 20, 2009

some photo

image hosted on flickr



Yueyang Railway Station(CRH) 新岳阳站
image hosted on flickr




Miluo Railway Station(CRH) 新汨罗站
image hosted on flickr




Changsha Railway Station(CRH) 新长沙站/长沙南站
image hosted on flickr




Zhuzhou Railway Station(CRH) 新株洲站/株洲西站
image hosted on flickr




Hengshan Railway Station(CRH) 新衡山站
image hosted on flickr




Hengyang Railway Station(CRH) 新衡阳站/衡阳东站
image hosted on flickr




Chenzhou Railway Station(CRH) 新郴州站
image hosted on flickr




Leiyang Railway Staion(CRH) 新耒阳站
image hosted on flickr

Last edited by HunanChina; December 1st, 2009 at 01:42 PM.
HunanChina no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2009, 03:36 AM   #674
HunanChina
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Changsha
Posts: 265
Likes (Received): 5

Wuhan Rail Station(CRH) 武汉站

Design
image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr

Last edited by HunanChina; December 1st, 2009 at 01:24 PM.
HunanChina no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2009, 03:41 AM   #675
7freedom7
Ill get 6 pack abs
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Beijing
Posts: 3,253
Likes (Received): 412

a big step for Changsha, it will finally have the first CRH line.
__________________
My Flickr photos
7freedom7 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2009, 03:58 AM   #676
HunanChina
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Changsha
Posts: 265
Likes (Received): 5

New Xianning Rail Station(CRH) 新咸宁站

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr

Last edited by HunanChina; December 1st, 2009 at 01:25 PM.
HunanChina no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2009, 04:07 AM   #677
HunanChina
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Changsha
Posts: 265
Likes (Received): 5

New Yueyang Rail Station(CRH) 新岳阳站

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr

Last edited by HunanChina; December 1st, 2009 at 01:25 PM.
HunanChina no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2009, 04:19 AM   #678
HunanChina
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Changsha
Posts: 265
Likes (Received): 5

New Changsha Rail Station(CRH) 新长沙站/长沙南站

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr

Last edited by HunanChina; December 1st, 2009 at 01:28 PM.
HunanChina no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2009, 04:33 AM   #679
HunanChina
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Changsha
Posts: 265
Likes (Received): 5

New Zhuzhou Railway Station(Zhuzhou West Railway Station)

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr

Last edited by HunanChina; December 1st, 2009 at 04:41 AM.
HunanChina no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2009, 05:46 AM   #680
Scion
Registered User
 
Scion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hong Kong, Shenzhen
Posts: 3,602
Likes (Received): 4668

nice thread
Scion no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
china, high speed rail

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium