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Old December 24th, 2013, 04:10 AM   #7081
hmmwv
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
As I said. It was built long after all the rest.


The mainlines are like:
Beijing-Tianjin built 1897-1900
Beijing-Hankou built 1897-1906
Shanghai-Nanjing built 1905-1908
Tianjin-Pukou built 1908-1912

These must have had many bridges and viaducts because it was only Yangtze that was unbridged and crossed by ferries. For example both Beijing-Hankou and Tianjin-Pukou had to have bridges over Huanghe.

What happened to the original bridges and viaducts?
How old are the bridges and viaducts that now stand on the old railways?
And how were they built?
The Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge built in 1968 is the first railway bridge over Yangtze.

The first railway bridge over Yellow River is the Pinghan Railway Zhenzhou Yellow River Bridge is the first railway crossing and was built in 1905, it was converted to automobile bridge in 1969 and torn down in 1987. Earliest currently standing bridge is the Lanzhou-Urumqi Railway Yellow River Bridge which was built in 1955.
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Old December 24th, 2013, 04:49 AM   #7082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Yes, the schedules have been full for 60 years. So how did the Chinese manage to upgrade the railways while they were full all the time?
They built new lines out to one side. If the new line was full double track electrified replacement, they then abandoned the old line. Otherwise you end up with a "double" track, the two lines up to a kilometre apart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Also, have any old railways been upgraded after Sixth Speedup Campaign in 2007?
Has all the work of the Sixth Speedup Campaign been finished? Perhaps not. Xining - Golmud was supposed to be doubled, electrified, and straightened to 160km/hr for the opening of the line to Lhasa in 2006. Except for the Guanjiao tunnel which still isn't finished AFAICT.
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Old December 24th, 2013, 10:44 AM   #7083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
The Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge built in 1968 is the first railway bridge over Yangtze.
And the Wuhan bridge built in 1957 is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
The first railway bridge over Yellow River is the Pinghan Railway Zhenzhou Yellow River Bridge is the first railway crossing and was built in 1905, it was converted to automobile bridge in 1969 and torn down in 1987.
So that´s an example of a bridge that was abandoned, then demolished.
Is its 1960s railway replacement in use, or has it been replaced in its turn?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Earliest currently standing bridge is the Lanzhou-Urumqi Railway Yellow River Bridge which was built in 1955.
The Binzhou Bridge on Transmanchurian Railway, over Sungari in Harbin, is built in 1901 and is standing. Also, the whole Transmanchurian is double track now, and was not such in 1901.

An example of high speed mainline: Kowloon-Canton railway.
It was originally built 1906 to 1911 - as single track, unelectrified line.

The section Kowloon to Lo Wu was turned to double track electric railway 1982-1984. The section Lo Wu to Canton was double tracked 1984-1987, but was NOT at the time electrified. It was then the first double track line in Guangdong (but apparently not in China).
The northern section started to be tripled from 1991 (do not now find when tripling was completed). It was electrified by 1998. And then it was quadrupled 2005-2007 - being then the first quadruple railway in China.

Being more than double line was supposed to have been highly useful to speed up traffic on the railway, because getting express trains past slow freight or passenger trains is somewhat complicated on double tracks. Guangzhou-Shenzhen section was sped up to 200 km/h 1998 when the line was certainly not quadruple - at most triple. It has since fallen victim to Second Slowdown Campaign.

Have any other formerly double track lines been upgraded to three or more tracks after 2007?

China certainly has single track lines remaining. Like Nanjing-Qidong railway, which is due to be doubled and electrified soon... and the speed is supposed to more than double thereby. Or Pinghu-Nanshan railway that also is single track unelectrified railway.
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Old December 24th, 2013, 08:18 PM   #7084
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
China certainly has single track lines remaining.
Like Chengdu - Kunming. Not completed until 1971, electrified 2001, double tracking started on the easy bits, then abandoned when HSR proposed. Double tracking abandoned that is, the line itself is too important for access to the Panzhihua mines, and the Xichang satellite launch center. The first HSR plan I saw was straight down the middle line of the old 1953 plans, Leshan, Yibin, Suijiang, Dongchuan, Songming. Since then however, this line seems to have been sucked back into the four up and four across plan, then lost in the mountains of Guizhou ...
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Old December 24th, 2013, 09:43 PM   #7085
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Today on Railway Gazette:

Quote:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/i...-approved.html

Chinese rail projects approved
24 Dec 2013

CHINA: The final 527 km of the Southern Xinjiang line between Aksu and Korla opened for traffic on December 5 with the departure of a freight train from Aksu. The 1449 km line has been built in stages with the fiorst phase opening in 1984. It is designed for 160 km/h operation.

Construction of the Yancheng – Lianyungang railway will start soon. Expected to cost 26bn yuan, it will include 234 km of double track and 76 km of single-track branch, with 12 stations and 90 bridges and viaducts totalling 149 km. Primarily intended for passenger services, the line will be designed for 200 km/h running. Opening is planned for the end of 2017, along with the Qingdao – Lianyungang and

Shanghai – Nantong lines which will together form a coastal route linking the Shandong peninsula with the Yangtse delta.

The National Development & Reform Commission has confirmed plans for the 224 km Huanghua – Dajiawa line to improve links around the Bo Hai coast for passenger and coal transport. The route starts at Huanghua Nan and runs through Cangzhou, Bingzhou and Dong-ying, crossing the Yellow River at Datianjia and heading east to Weifang and Dajiawa.

A Lianyungang – Zhenjiang line will run for 312 km along the coast of Jiangsu province. The planned 420 km Nanchang – Ganzhou line would have stations at Xiangtang, Fengcheng, Zhangshu, Xingan, Xiajiang, Ji’an, Taihe, Wan’an and Xingguo.

A 574 km line would run from Yinchuan to Xi’an, and include double tracking of sections of the 266 km line from Pingliang to Xi’an.

A 366 km line between Quzhou and Ningde costing 30·5bn yuan has been approved, as well as work to enhance capacity of the E’mei to Mi’yi section of the Chengdu – Kunming railway.
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Old December 25th, 2013, 04:04 AM   #7086
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Shenzhen - Xiamen tickets are finally up for sale, 20 pairs of D trains in total. Most go to Fuzhou, some continue further to Wenzhou or Hangzhou.

4 of them continue all the way to Shanghai for a total travel time of 12 hours or more. Running slightly faster the other way with D2287 leaving Shanghai Hongqiao at 6:25 reaching Shenzhen North at 18:16.

There is also one pair D2289/90 to Nanjing bypassing Shanghai with total time a bit under 13 hours.

Last edited by ranshining; December 25th, 2013 at 04:12 AM.
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Old December 25th, 2013, 07:20 AM   #7087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
And the Wuhan bridge built in 1957 is?

So that´s an example of a bridge that was abandoned, then demolished.
Is its 1960s railway replacement in use, or has it been replaced in its turn?

The Binzhou Bridge on Transmanchurian Railway, over Sungari in Harbin, is built in 1901 and is standing. Also, the whole Transmanchurian is double track now, and was not such in 1901.
You are correct I forgot about the Wuhan bridge. After the old Zhenzhou bridge was demolished a new one was built as its replacement.
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Old December 25th, 2013, 10:48 AM   #7088
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranshining View Post
Shenzhen - Xiamen tickets are finally up for sale, 20 pairs of D trains in total. Most go to Fuzhou, some continue further to Wenzhou or Hangzhou.

4 of them continue all the way to Shanghai for a total travel time of 12 hours or more.
There is also one pair D2289/90 to Nanjing bypassing Shanghai with total time a bit under 13 hours.
Do any of the 20 continue to Guangzhou?
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Old December 25th, 2013, 02:00 PM   #7089
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I just came upon this map of Chinese high speed rail lines on a Spanish rail blog: http://ravch.geotren.es

Current as of December 1st 2013 (only lines in operation shown). The best map I've seen anywhere.
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Old December 25th, 2013, 04:11 PM   #7090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I just came upon this map of Chinese high speed rail lines on a Spanish rail blog: http://ravch.geotren.es

Current as of December 1st 2013 (only lines in operation shown). The best map I've seen anywhere.
Isn't there a better map in Wikipedia? Unlike the map you linked to it does show existing paralel lines (such as Shanghai-Nanjing or Beijing-Tianjin). Guangshen line is missing altogether. It's not a great map.

Here is Wikipiedia map: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...p_of_China.svg
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Old December 25th, 2013, 04:21 PM   #7091
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Isn't there a better map in Wikipedia? Unlike the map you linked to it does show existing paralel lines (such as Shanghai-Nanjing or Beijing-Tianjin). Guangshen line is missing altogether. It's not a great map.

Here is Wikipiedia map: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...p_of_China.svg
I wasn't aware of the map you posted. Which wikipedia article is it from? All the rail information (particularly about China) is so fragmented there with multiple similar articles…

As for the map I posted I think it's useful to also have a look at new HS lines only. Easier to see where the gaps are and which routes are completed already.

Guangshen line runs from which city to which city and at what speed?
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Old December 25th, 2013, 04:27 PM   #7092
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I wasn't aware of the map you posted. Which wikipedia article is it from? All the rail information (particularly about China) is so fragmented there with multiple similar articles…

As for the map I posted I think it's useful to also have a look at new HS lines only. Easier to see where the gaps are and which routes are completed already.

Guangshen line runs from which city to which city and at what speed?
The map is from the main China HSR article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China

Guangshen line is runs from Shenzhen to Guangzhou via Dongguan at up to 200km/h. I guess they didn't include it due to the same reason as other parallel lines even though it's a completely separate line and is not even near the new 350km/h line.

Last edited by Pansori; December 25th, 2013 at 04:40 PM.
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Old December 25th, 2013, 08:42 PM   #7093
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
The map is from the main China HSR article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China

Guangshen line is runs from Shenzhen to Guangzhou via Dongguan at up to 200km/h. I guess they didn't include it due to the same reason as other parallel lines even though it's a completely separate line and is not even near the new 350km/h line.
I thought that "old" Guangshen line was just a "standard" line that had been upgraded in one of the early Speedup programs, so it wouldn't now rate as HSR.

Problem with most Wikimedia maps, they are historic documents. E.g. this one shows a number of lines in orange as "upgraded and other" lines with CRH service. Certainly they were in the Speedup programs, but upgrading work stopped in many places when new HSR lines started to be built parallel.
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Old December 25th, 2013, 10:08 PM   #7094
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xinxingren View Post
I thought that "old" Guangshen line was just a "standard" line that had been upgraded in one of the early Speedup programs, so it wouldn't now rate as HSR.
What is the precise definition of HSR in China?

If I'm not mistaken Gaungshen line was the first HSR line in China with service speeds up to 200km/h. Therefore it should be shown on the map as a 200km/h line.

Not sure if it's the same in China but according to EU definition of HSR it is any new line designed for 250km/h speeds and above or any upgraded line capable of 200km/h speeds and above. So according to this definition Guangshen would actually count as a HSR while new lines capable of 200km/h (such as Guangzhou-Zhuhai ICL) would not count as HSR. It may be slightly different in China though. Not that it makes any difference in real life.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 01:30 AM   #7095
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
What is the precise definition of HSR in China?

If I'm not mistaken Gaungshen line was the first HSR line in China with service speeds up to 200km/h. Therefore it should be shown on the map as a 200km/h line.

Not sure if it's the same in China but according to EU definition of HSR it is any new line designed for 250km/h speeds and above or any upgraded line capable of 200km/h speeds and above. So according to this definition Guangshen would actually count as a HSR while new lines capable of 200km/h (such as Guangzhou-Zhuhai ICL) would not count as HSR. It may be slightly different in China though. Not that it makes any difference in real life.
Guangshen wasn't China's first HSR, it was officially named quasi high speed railway (准高速铁路) due to its 160km/h normal operating speed. Qinhuangdao-Shenyang is China's first HSR.

Since all 200km/h upgraded conventional lines have been downgraded to 160km/h none of those lines count as HSR in China anymore. Currently high speed rail's definition in China is passenger dedicated lines with speed greater than 200km/h, however some passenger/freight mix lines which met that speed requirement have also been called HSR too.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 01:37 AM   #7096
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200 km/h lines are a grey area both in China and elsewhere. Also we need to be sure that there are actually trains running at that speed on the line not just it being theoretically possible. 250 km/h or more is a safer definition because generally speaking it's not possible to upgrade an old classical line to that speed without major rebuilding and if that is done almost surely there are also trains using this feature.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 02:31 AM   #7097
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Guangshen wasn't China's first HSR, it was officially named quasi high speed railway (准高速铁路) due to its 160km/h normal operating speed. Qinhuangdao-Shenyang is China's first HSR.

Since all 200km/h upgraded conventional lines have been downgraded to 160km/h none of those lines count as HSR in China anymore. Currently high speed rail's definition in China is passenger dedicated lines with speed greater than 200km/h, however some passenger/freight mix lines which met that speed requirement have also been called HSR too.
Was Guangshen railway downgraded to 160km/h too?
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Old December 26th, 2013, 02:56 AM   #7098
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Guangshen line is runs from Shenzhen to Guangzhou via Dongguan at up to 200km/h.
I have travelled on that line quite often.
The train never really accelerated above 120 km/h.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 03:47 AM   #7099
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When I took that train from Guangzhou back to Shenzhen in 2009 it traveled at 200km/h.

Don't know what happened to it after the speed downgrade, and the opening of the 380km/h spec line between Guangzhou and Shenzhen.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 05:01 AM   #7100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Do any of the 20 continue to Guangzhou?
No, Shenzhen North is the last stop on all trains from Xiamen.

There will be just two G trains Guangzhou - Chaoshan (roughly halfway between Shenzhen and Xiamen).

It's probably not economical to run the faster trainsets on the slower Shenzhen - Xiamen line. The opposite option is trying to fit a 200 km/h train on the very busy 300 km/h Shenzhen - Guangzhou line.

So, for now no direct Guangzhou - Xiamen (aside from the K trains that take the old railways).
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