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Old February 3rd, 2014, 01:17 PM   #7321
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Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
China, on the other hand has done it's network to a seemingly even higher spec than any of those countries (perhaps except Spain?).
Japan? I think their technology and specifications for the true Shinkansen lines (not necessarily for the mini-Shinkansen) are very good indeed. Especially with all the safety features they have, not to mention the punctuality and lack of deaths in all of their years of running. Very enviable indeed.
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Old February 3rd, 2014, 01:25 PM   #7322
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Just compare the convenience of CRH against Shinkansen.

Out of the 17 stations of Tokaido Shinkansen, 12 are old stations on Tokaido main line. 2 (Shin-Osaka and Mikawa-Anjo) are new stations on the old Tokaido mainline, and out of the only 3 that are not served by Tokaido main line, 2 (Shin-Yokohama and Gifu-Hashima) are on branch lines (and stations thereof). Shin-Fuji is the only Tokaido Shinkansen station out of 17 that is not served by zairaisen.

How many CRH stations are on slow speed railway and old, existing stations?

They tend to be at inaccessible and also unserved places in distant suburbs. Inconvenient.
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Old February 3rd, 2014, 02:28 PM   #7323
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Just compare the convenience of CRH against Shinkansen.
Out of the 17 stations of Tokaido Shinkansen, 12 are old stations on Tokaido main line. 2 (Shin-Osaka and Mikawa-Anjo) are new stations on the old Tokaido mainline, and out of the only 3 that are not served by Tokaido main line, 2 (Shin-Yokohama and Gifu-Hashima) are on branch lines (and stations thereof). Shin-Fuji is the only Tokaido Shinkansen station out of 17 that is not served by zairaisen.
How many CRH stations are on slow speed railway and old, existing stations?
They tend to be at inaccessible and also unserved places in distant suburbs. Inconvenient.
what are the average speed of CRH and shinkansen?CHR has an average speed of 320km/h in wuhan to Guangzhou line before 2011,acess to the old station is at the price of speed,in downtown,you can not pass the station at the speed of 300km/h.
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Old February 3rd, 2014, 02:33 PM   #7324
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Originally Posted by flankerjun View Post
what are the average speed of CRH and shinkansen?CHR has an average speed of 320km/h in wuhan to Guangzhou line before 2011,acess to the old station is at the price of speed,in downtown,you can not pass the station at the speed of 300km/h.
Tokaido Shinkansen top speed is 270 km/h. Nozomi stop at 5 of the 17 stations - they pass without stopping through major old downtown stations like Shizuoka:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzvgIOOjHdI
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Old February 3rd, 2014, 03:21 PM   #7325
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Tokaido Shinkansen top speed is 270 km/h. Nozomi stop at 5 of the 17 stations - they pass without stopping through major old downtown stations like Shizuoka:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzvgIOOjHdI
Top speed is not average speed,average speed of other countries is far behind China.China HSR has a minimum curve radius of 7000m,if you pass the downtown,you can not fit for the condition,when you pass the station,you must slow down the speed.Harbin to Dalian HSR is an example,when you pass the downtown of Shenyang the speed slow down from 300 to 80km/h.for China HSR,when you stop at a station,you will add 5min to the whole journy.BUT if the station is in the downtown,the time will be at least 15min.
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Old February 3rd, 2014, 03:38 PM   #7326
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Top speed is not average speed,average speed of other countries is far behind China.China HSR has a minimum curve radius of 7000m,if you pass the downtown,you can not fit for the condition,when you pass the station,you must slow down the speed.Harbin to Dalian HSR is an example,when you pass the downtown of Shenyang the speed slow down from 300 to 80km/h.for China HSR,when you stop at a station,you will add 5min to the whole journy.BUT if the station is in the downtown,the time will be at least 15min.
Nozomi #40 speed between Tokyo and Hakata, a distance of 1174.9km covered in 308 minutes. Average speed of 228.8km/h.

If China can manage an average speed of 320km/h, that's very impressive sure, though of course, as distance goes up and stations per km goes down, then of course average speed will be greater, so it stands to reason the longest CRH lines will have a better average speed compared to the more frequent stops of the Shinkansen (even the fastest ones make a good number of stops). But speed isn't everything. When talking about specifications one needs to consider, frequency, positioning, safety, reliability, comfort etc. It's not just about raw speed.
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Old February 3rd, 2014, 03:55 PM   #7327
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Nozomi #40 speed between Tokyo and Hakata, a distance of 1174.9km covered in 308 minutes. Average speed of 228.8km/h.
What is the number of intermediate stops, 9?
Beijing-Shanghai no G train makes 9 intermediate stops. A few make 8, and the fastest of those is G153, 345 minutes for 1318 km. Average speed 229,2 km. So basically no difference here... and the other 8 stop G are slower.
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If China can manage an average speed of 320km/h, that's very impressive sure,
Nowhere even close!
Beijing-Shanghai 1318 km, best time (1 stop) 4:48, so average 274,6 km/h. Beijing-Guangzhou real distance 2104 km, best time (4 stops) used to be 7:59, but seems to have vanished! So now the fastest time Beijing-Guangzhou is 9:14, G69 with 11 stops, average speed 227,9 km/h. Worse than Nozomi, and less stops, too. And stations in wrong places, as stated before.
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Old February 3rd, 2014, 04:08 PM   #7328
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I've always wondered, what are these concrete protrusions next to the tracks? (circled in red)I don't see them on HSR in other countries.

[IMG]http://i41.************/20rpcud.jpg[/IMG]
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their function is to fix the position of the track plate.There are 4 kinds of unballasted track.this kind is from Germany,called Boegl plate,is widely used in 300+km/h hsr.Boegl plate has Superior performance,but is difficult to produce,and so expensive.So after 2010,a new kind of track plate replaced the Boegl plate.
Concrete tracks for HSR are safe ? Since they are used (maybe since a decade), are there any problems of usury ?
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Old February 3rd, 2014, 04:34 PM   #7329
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What is the number of intermediate stops, 9?
Beijing-Shanghai no G train makes 9 intermediate stops. A few make 8, and the fastest of those is G153, 345 minutes for 1318 km. Average speed 229,2 km. So basically no difference here... and the other 8 stop G are slower.
Nowhere even close!
Beijing-Shanghai 1318 km, best time (1 stop) 4:48, so average 274,6 km/h. Beijing-Guangzhou real distance 2104 km, best time (4 stops) used to be 7:59, but seems to have vanished! So now the fastest time Beijing-Guangzhou is 9:14, G69 with 11 stops, average speed 227,9 km/h. Worse than Nozomi, and less stops, too. And stations in wrong places, as stated before.
In JP,they take nearly all the measues to raise the speed,but after all the line is too old,top speed 320km/h is so difficult.In China,the infrastructure is so superior,line condition of 250km/h line is better than that 300km/h line in JP.for China,to reach an average speed over 300km/h is not a technology problem but a political problem.In 2009,the train from Guangzhou north to Whuhan run 1068km within 2h 46min,an average speed of 341km/h.
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Old February 3rd, 2014, 05:00 PM   #7330
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In JP,they take nearly all the measues to raise the speed,but after all the line is too old,top speed 320km/h is so difficult.In China,the infrastructure is so superior,line condition of 250km/h line is better than that 300km/h line in JP.for China,to reach an average speed over 300km/h is not a technology problem but a political problem.In 2009,the train from Guangzhou north to Whuhan run 1068km within 2h 46min,an average speed of 341km/h.
China strong, yes everything is inferior and old in Japan.

It's not that the line is too old. It was decided that it was uneconomical to run trains at 360km/h due to the amount of wear and tear that results on the overhead wires, the tracks and due to noise concerns - especially from tunnel boom. As the TGV showed, you can run trains at over 500km/h on regular tracks, however, the amount of damage done to those said tracks really does mitigate any advantages to be gained from higher speeds. Why on earth would you risk profitability for status?

The Shinkansen - especially the Tokaido line, runs an incredibly dense schedule, and the network transports 300 million per year across it. Given these figures, one has to consider economics and the cost-benefit ratio for increasing speed. Sure, in some cases there has been a drive for improvements in speed following the introduction of the next generation of rolling stock (for example between Tokyo and Shin-Aomori), but overall it's more about clever utilisation of resources to maximise profit vs. maintenance costs and environmental impact. If they can capture a market share from airlines on key routes within Japan at present, then they're doing their job well enough. The only other change will be the introduction of the maglev between Tokyo and Osaka (Chuo Shinkansen project). The technology used there mitigates the maintenance issues one faces with conventional steel wheel + rail when one increases speeds beyond 320km/h, thus this is the solution to the problem of wear and tear.

But if it makes you feel better, China is superior in every measure.
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Old February 3rd, 2014, 05:26 PM   #7331
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Just take another seat!
You can only sit at the seat on your ticket.
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Old February 3rd, 2014, 05:34 PM   #7332
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China strong, yes everything is inferior and old in Japan.

It's not that the line is too old. It was decided that it was uneconomical to run trains at 360km/h due to the amount of wear and tear that results on the overhead wires, the tracks and due to noise concerns - especially from tunnel boom. As the TGV showed, you can run trains at over 500km/h on regular tracks, however, the amount of damage done to those said tracks really does mitigate any advantages to be gained from higher speeds. Why on earth would you risk profitability for status?

The Shinkansen - especially the Tokaido line, runs an incredibly dense schedule, and the network transports 300 million per year across it. Given these figures, one has to consider economics and the cost-benefit ratio for increasing speed. Sure, in some cases there has been a drive for improvements in speed following the introduction of the next generation of rolling stock (for example between Tokyo and Shin-Aomori), but overall it's more about clever utilisation of resources to maximise profit vs. maintenance costs and environmental impact. If they can capture a market share from airlines on key routes within Japan at present, then they're doing their job well enough. The only other change will be the introduction of the maglev between Tokyo and Osaka (Chuo Shinkansen project). The technology used there mitigates the maintenance issues one faces with conventional steel wheel + rail when one increases speeds beyond 320km/h, thus this is the solution to the problem of wear and tear.

But if it makes you feel better, China is superior in every measure.
I think you may misunderstand what i mean.What are the determinant of the speed? curve radius and tunnels,in stations in China may be a little far from the downtown,but their aim is to keep the curve radius,to get a high average speed.just so simple.For JP HSR ,the cost is not the problem but the infrastructure.if they want to reduce the cost,they should not to speed up every few years.The cost to speed up even higher than to built a new line.infrastructure is really the key problem.maximum curve radius is just 4500m,most are 2000 to 3000m,in China the minimum is 7000m.most are 9000 to 12000m.running 320km/h at the line that has a curve radius 4000m,they need so many extra measures,so the cost is so high,but for China,they need not take those measures.
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Old February 3rd, 2014, 07:43 PM   #7333
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I think you may misunderstand what i mean.What are the determinant of the speed? curve radius and tunnels,in stations in China may be a little far from the downtown,but their aim is to keep the curve radius,to get a high average speed.just so simple.
And they do not get the high average speed, after all.
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For JP HSR ,the cost is not the problem but the infrastructure.if they want to reduce the cost,they should not to speed up every few years.The cost to speed up even higher than to built a new line.infrastructure is really the key problem.maximum curve radius is just 4500m,most are 2000 to 3000m,
No, only Tokaido Shinkansen has 2500 m curves. Sanyo and Tohoku Shinkansen have 4000 m curves, yet they get into many old central city stations.
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Old February 3rd, 2014, 08:18 PM   #7334
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Originally Posted by flankerjun View Post
Top speed is not average speed,average speed of other countries is far behind China.China HSR has a minimum curve radius of 7000m,if you pass the downtown,you can not fit for the condition,when you pass the station,you must slow down the speed.Harbin to Dalian HSR is an example,when you pass the downtown of Shenyang the speed slow down from 300 to 80km/h.for China HSR,when you stop at a station,you will add 5min to the whole journy.BUT if the station is in the downtown,the time will be at least 15min.
It might still be worth it because I don't think you can get from some of those suburban stations to downtown in just 10 min. That might be the only disadvantage of Chinese HS rail vs that in some other countries.

I've personally used French, German (kind of) and Italian systems. No complaints in either case. In Italy though there is a huge contrast between shiny new HS trains and their fast and reliable connections and the rest of the system which is plagued by delays and in some areas is pretty decrepit…
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Old February 3rd, 2014, 08:43 PM   #7335
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Just take another seat!
He was in France mate, not China. In China the person whose seat got taken would complain, not abt the taken seat, but abt the broken window.
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Old February 3rd, 2014, 09:02 PM   #7336
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I think you may misunderstand what i mean.What are the determinant of the speed? curve radius and tunnels,in stations in China may be a little far from the downtown,but their aim is to keep the curve radius,to get a high average speed.just so simple.For JP HSR ,the cost is not the problem but the infrastructure.if they want to reduce the cost,they should not to speed up every few years.The cost to speed up even higher than to built a new line.infrastructure is really the key problem.maximum curve radius is just 4500m,most are 2000 to 3000m,in China the minimum is 7000m.most are 9000 to 12000m.running 320km/h at the line that has a curve radius 4000m,they need so many extra measures,so the cost is so high,but for China,they need not take those measures.
It's funny, both you and another forummer seem to love parroting these statistics as some kind of winning blow in a technological dick-waving battle.
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Old February 3rd, 2014, 11:55 PM   #7337
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Japan? I think their technology and specifications for the true Shinkansen lines (not necessarily for the mini-Shinkansen) are very good indeed. Especially with all the safety features they have, not to mention the punctuality and lack of deaths in all of their years of running. Very enviable indeed.
Sorry for not making myself very clear.

Japan, of course, has a more adequate system as a whole (China's system is still very much in progress and will take at least another decade to mature). As perhaps almost any European system. But I meant actual technical specs on a micro level i.e. such things as ballastless elevated tracks, 7000m curve radiuses for 300+km/h lines and state of the art railway stations. Does Japan have all of that on a consistent basis? I really don't think so.

As for the overall efficiency and adequacy it is way too early to compare (at least by another 10 years or so). Some stations have been built 'in the middle of nowhere' not because of large curve radiuses or incompetence of the planners but simply because in many (most?) such cases the city/city district itself was not built there in the first place. Just use the historical imagery of Google Earth and try to observe Shenzhen North station. It's an emerging new modern high-density residential area. Just a few years ago it was an empty land. Plain fields and hills!

So China not only needs to fully complete its CRH network but also complete its urbanization. After that happens we'll be able to have a fair comparison of overall adequacy and efficiency of the system. For the time being, however, we can only compare individual technical specs like radiuses, technologies used for tracks, stations, rolling-stock etc and this is where China stands out even if compared to Japan.

Last edited by Pansori; February 4th, 2014 at 12:13 AM.
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Old February 4th, 2014, 12:36 AM   #7338
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Rolling stock superior - that's arguable. As for technologies signalling systems, I rate the Japanese as higher as it is proven technology that has allowed very high frequencies of trains to run - especially on the Tokaido Shinkansen without collision. Not only that, but their safety systems have been tested under extreme conditions on numerous occasions (earthquakes).

If you're talking about the fact that China has been able to engineer its system better as it is new and they can reap the benefits of previous experience from other countries, then yes, I agree that the way they're building their system is definitely best practice in terms of track and the curves, however, the superiority you speak of should be tempered with the knowledge that there has been a severe accident already on the system where technology was blamed, whereas there has not on the Japanese system despite it being the oldest high speed rail system in the world.
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Old February 4th, 2014, 01:19 AM   #7339
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Rolling stock superior - that's arguable. As for technologies signalling systems, I rate the Japanese as higher as it is proven technology that has allowed very high frequencies of trains to run - especially on the Tokaido Shinkansen without collision. Not only that, but their safety systems have been tested under extreme conditions on numerous occasions (earthquakes).

If you're talking about the fact that China has been able to engineer its system better as it is new and they can reap the benefits of previous experience from other countries, then yes, I agree that the way they're building their system is definitely best practice in terms of track and the curves, however, the superiority you speak of should be tempered with the knowledge that there has been a severe accident already on the system where technology was blamed, whereas there has not on the Japanese system despite it being the oldest high speed rail system in the world.
Will be able to make a fair comparison in perhaps 10 years once China completes its HSR system and urbanization.

As for the Wenzhou accident, I think it is important to see the broader picture. The main question here is whether the Chinese made conclusions and took relevant actions after the accident. They seemingly did. It would be very hard to underestimate the progress of the know-how when you build ten thousand km of HSR routes in a few years time and launch 1000 trainsets on them. Time is always a factor when it comes to having an overall good system (as Japan demonstrates as so does France) but it would be crazy to underestimate China's system given the context in which it is happening (scale of the system, money put in it, technologies acquired from all possible sources). Yet the raw technical specs of the network actually are better than those of Japan despite the fact that they have not achieved their full utilization yet. Signalling is part of that, however this is something you can tune up. On the other hand, you cannot tune up tracks with ballast to accommodate speeds of 350-380km/h. Or you cannot tune tracks with 4000m radius to act like ones with 7000m turn radius.

I do understand your point but I think we are talking slightly different things here and in essence they do not contradict each other.

Last edited by Pansori; February 4th, 2014 at 01:26 AM.
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Old February 4th, 2014, 01:30 AM   #7340
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Has anybody noticed the (lack of) safety for the railway workers? I'm talking about simple things, like helmet, reflective work uniform, gloves, shoes...
Why do you need it? Save money and be a man.
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