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Old February 4th, 2014, 01:31 AM   #7341
Sunfuns
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It still remains to be seen if any conventional trains are going to run at 350-380 km/h in China or elsewhere. As far as I understand costs in maintenance and energy consumption do not justify small amounts of extra time gained. Not with the current technology at least.

There have been only three major HS rail accidents anywhere (right?) and of course lessons were learned from them. Still that doesn't erase them from existence...
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Old February 4th, 2014, 01:39 AM   #7342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
China strong, yes everything is inferior and old in Japan.

It's not that the line is too old. It was decided that it was uneconomical to run trains at 360km/h due to the amount of wear and tear that results on the overhead wires, the tracks and due to noise concerns - especially from tunnel boom. As the TGV showed, you can run trains at over 500km/h on regular tracks, however, the amount of damage done to those said tracks really does mitigate any advantages to be gained from higher speeds. Why on earth would you risk profitability for status?

The Shinkansen - especially the Tokaido line, runs an incredibly dense schedule, and the network transports 300 million per year across it. Given these figures, one has to consider economics and the cost-benefit ratio for increasing speed. Sure, in some cases there has been a drive for improvements in speed following the introduction of the next generation of rolling stock (for example between Tokyo and Shin-Aomori), but overall it's more about clever utilisation of resources to maximise profit vs. maintenance costs and environmental impact. If they can capture a market share from airlines on key routes within Japan at present, then they're doing their job well enough. The only other change will be the introduction of the maglev between Tokyo and Osaka (Chuo Shinkansen project). The technology used there mitigates the maintenance issues one faces with conventional steel wheel + rail when one increases speeds beyond 320km/h, thus this is the solution to the problem of wear and tear.

But if it makes you feel better, China is superior in every measure.

You gotta accept infrastructure is superior in China. Numbers do not lie. Average Japanese high speed railway is 40 years old. In China it is not even 4. Minimum turn radius, ballastless and elevated lines, larger diameter tunnels are the main parameters of the high speed line and numbers all favor Chinese network.

Ask yourself this: If the Tokaido line built now, what standards it would have followed?
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Old February 4th, 2014, 01:48 AM   #7343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
What lines did you use in Germany?

If Wikipedia is being accurate then there are only two 300km/h HSR lines in Germany at the moment:

- Ingolstadt to Nuremberg stretch of Nuremberg-Munich HSR
- Cologne-Frankfurt (130km/h near Cologne where it joins conventional rail junction)

In general German HSR network looks a little patchy with only a few all-new lines while most being upgraded with speeds varying in different stretches.

France, Spain, Japan (Italy, South Korea too?) have complete HSR networks or varying size and density with continuous dedicated tracks which is why it would be more fair to mention those countries when talking about HSR. As silly walks mentioned Germany has a somewhat conservative approach to HSR. And, to be honest, I don't understand it. Perhaps because it was cheaper to upgrade old lines? Then again, Germany largely paid for Spain's brand new HSR network which is why such argument probably wouldn't make sense.

China, on the other hand has done it's network to a seemingly even higher spec than any of those countries (perhaps except Spain?).
Hannover-Frankfurt
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Old February 4th, 2014, 03:19 AM   #7344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Hannover-Frankfurt
That makes it clear. Part of the journey is on the Hanover–Würzburg HSR which is a 250-280km/h line while a good part of it (Fulda to Frankfurt) is on a conventional sub 160km/h (?) line. Hence inconsistency in speed.
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Old February 4th, 2014, 03:45 AM   #7345
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Originally Posted by Gadiri View Post
Concrete tracks for HSR are safe ? Since they are used (maybe since a decade), are there any problems of usury ?
advantage:
stable,very low cost for maintaining.could run above 300km/h.
disadvantage: expensive to build,you need CNC to make track plate.once broken,difficult to repaire.
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Old February 4th, 2014, 10:58 AM   #7346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
You gotta accept infrastructure is superior in China. Numbers do not lie. Average Japanese high speed railway is 40 years old.
You mean, average 1974?
Not so.
Opening dates:
Before 1974:
Tokaido Shinkansen, 1964, 515 km
Osaka-Okayama section of Sanyo Shinkansen, 1972, 161 km
total 676 km

Since 1974:
Okayama-Hakata section of Sanyo Shinkansen, 1975, 393 km

Omiya-Morioka section of Tohoku Shinkansen, June 1982, 465 km
Joetsu Shinkansen, 1982, 269 km
Nagano Shinkansen, 1997, 117 km
Morioka-Hachinohe section of Tohoku Shinkansen, 2002, 97 km
Kagoshima-Shin-Yatsushiro section of Kyushu Shinkansen, 2004, 127 km
Hachinohe-Shin-Aomori section of Tohoku Shinkansen, 2010, 82 km
Hakata-Shin-Yatsushiro section of Kyushu Shinkansen, 2011, 130 km
total: 1680 km

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Ask yourself this: If the Tokaido line built now, what standards it would have followed?
The curve radii were increased from 2500 m to 4000 m with the Sanyo Shinkansen of 1972, and have stayed there since. The lines now built, like Kyushu, Tohoku, Hokuriku or Hokkaido Shinkansens, have the same. The fastest Shinkansen, Utsunomiya-Morioka section of Tohoku Shinkansen, whose 320 km/h speed no Chinese railway matches, was opened back in 1982.

Chuo Shinkansen being built now does have 8000 m curve radii - but it also plans 505 km/h speed.
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Old February 4th, 2014, 12:40 PM   #7347
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Actually it's meaningless comparing apples with oranges.
Different terrain, different technology, different demand.
One bring superior in an aspect doesn't imply that it's superior in all and vice versa.
There is no best bullet trains or best high speed rail, just how beneficial they are to the people.
Really don't have to focus on comparing and determining who the winner is. Enjoy!

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Old February 4th, 2014, 08:03 PM   #7348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Chuo Shinkansen being built now does have 8000 m curve radii - but it also plans 505 km/h speed.
That's not HSR, that's a bragging match.
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Old February 4th, 2014, 11:59 PM   #7349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by augst6 View Post
Actually it's meaningless comparing apples with oranges.
Different terrain, different technology, different demand.
One bring superior in an aspect doesn't imply that it's superior in all and vice versa.
There is no best bullet trains or best high speed rail, just how beneficial they are to the people.
Really don't have to focus on comparing and determining who the winner is. Enjoy!

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk
It's perfectly meaningful to compare various parameters of HSR in a topic dedicated to HSR including infrastructure specs, reliability, efficiency etc. What is indeed meaningless is the attempt to make this topic a politically correct one.

I think over the last few dozens of posts we established a number of things which are just good to know for those who are interested in the HSR topic in China and elsewhere. If we'll stick to the "all HSR systems are equally good" then it will make it harder to actually improve our knowledge and understanding.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 01:16 AM   #7350
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Quote:
all HSR systems are equally good
Except exactly no one said, nor inferred that.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 02:04 AM   #7351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xinxingren View Post
That's not HSR, that's a bragging match.
It's high speed, and it's on a rail


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Old February 5th, 2014, 02:10 AM   #7352
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Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
Except exactly no one said, nor inferred that.
It's a reference to implications that we shall not discuss anything because it's all 'apples and oranges' anyway.

My point is that pretty much everything can be compared and we shall do that.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 12:29 PM   #7353
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Making broad comparisons of the whole system between two of them isn't helpful though, but comparisons of specific parts - passenger numbers, speed, safety record, profit margins, etc - is certainly viable. It's just dumb to claim an entire system is outright "better" than another - as you then have to start discussing what constitutes "better" and the weighting of individual factors that comprise "better".
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Old February 5th, 2014, 01:26 PM   #7354
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i like the new chinese trainsets
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Old February 5th, 2014, 03:23 PM   #7355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post

Making broad comparisons of the whole system between two of them isn't helpful though, but comparisons of specific parts - passenger numbers, speed, safety record, profit margins, etc - is certainly viable. It's just dumb to claim an entire system is outright "better" than another - as you then have to start discussing what constitutes "better" and the weighting of individual factors that comprise "better".
Of course. Absolutely agree on that and I already explained myself in my previous posts.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 04:06 PM   #7356
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Originally Posted by doc7austin View Post
Just take another seat!
You can only sit at the seat on your ticket.
@Silly_Walks: If there are free seats, each passenger is free to relocate to that seat - thats certainly true for daytime trains in French, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany (and even China).
The conductor wont care, as long as you have ticket+reservation for right train and class.

I thought you are an experienced train traveller.
When you seat is sh*t and the train is empty - you think - you are not allowed to move?
And I hardly have seen a train, where really 100% of all seats were occupied.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 05:14 PM   #7357
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While I have been in Japan, I haven't used their HSR and cannot compare, besides it is too much like nation vs nation contests that quickly get boring.

But on the parametres new vs old I would say old (prerequisite: well-maintained, functioning) has a slight edge. New is shinier, more pleasing, and usually has fresher technology. Older is experienced, with startup gremlins fixed, but the real edge is that in a decade the new system will be old(er) too.

In other words if we had two rail networks, identical in all aspects except that one is an average of two years old and the other twenty, I would say that the latter is a little better.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 05:26 PM   #7358
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Rail systems could be compared on technical specifications (highest operating speed, highest average speed, length of track, energy efficiency, or what have you), or on its practical functionality (actual travel time, reliability, comfort, ease of orientation, ease of getting tickets, affordability, integration, locations, usability...), economy (for the traveller, the transporter, society), impact on the environment...

On some of these criteria the Chinese HSR system is the best in the world, on others it does less well.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 05:46 PM   #7359
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I think this discuss has no sense at all.
Rail system are very different. But the nations, towns, population densities, population distributions, etc., are very different. I'm 100% sure that Deutsche Bahn would in Chine build a rail system which is very similar to the existing one, and CRH would in Germany build an ICE-network which is very similar to the existing one.
The rail system differ not because Chinese are good and German are bad or vice versa but because German needs differ heavily from Chinese needs.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 06:21 PM   #7360
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Originally Posted by Attus View Post
I think this discuss has no sense at all.
Rail system are very different. But the nations, towns, population densities, population distributions, etc., are very different. I'm 100% sure that Deutsche Bahn would in Chine build a rail system which is very similar to the existing one, and CRH would in Germany build an ICE-network which is very similar to the existing one.
The rail system differ not because Chinese are good and German are bad or vice versa but because German needs differ heavily from Chinese needs.

That's an understatement.
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