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Old February 5th, 2014, 07:03 PM   #7361
foxmulder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post

Making broad comparisons of the whole system between two of them isn't helpful though, but comparisons of specific parts - passenger numbers, speed, safety record, profit margins, etc - is certainly viable. It's just dumb to claim an entire system is outright "better" than another - as you then have to start discussing what constitutes "better" and the weighting of individual factors that comprise "better".

Who is doing that whole system comparison?

Min curve radii, line being elevated or not, tunnel diameters, ballastless or not... These are quite specific and measurable technical specifications. These numbers are not opinions.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 08:02 PM   #7362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post

Who is doing that whole system comparison?

Min curve radii, line being elevated or not, tunnel diameters, ballastless or not... These are quite specific and measurable technical specifications. These numbers are not opinions.
Precisely! For whatever reason some find it 'pointless' to compare. I actually find it very interesting.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 09:28 PM   #7363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Who is doing that whole system comparison?

Min curve radii, line being elevated or not, tunnel diameters, ballastless or not... These are quite specific and measurable technical specifications. These numbers are not opinions.
But you can have all bells and whistles but still have a bad system. I think :Jax: summed this point up quite succinctly. In any case, each HSR system has been adapted for local needs. One of the key points for me at least is that the system is profitable, successful in capturing transport mode, operates reliably, operates safely and operates a good schedule. These to me are hallmarks of "advanced" and "successful" systems.

Anyway, I think this discussion has been hashed out quite a bit. There are those in my camp on this, and there are those that consider technical specifications and potential to be the most important factors for the railway. Neither argument is wrong or right.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 10:42 PM   #7364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Nozomi #40 speed between Tokyo and Hakata, a distance of 1174.9km covered in 308 minutes. Average speed of 228.8km/h.
That distance is official, but wrong. 1174,9 km is the official distance because it is the distance on the zairaisen main line.
The distance along shinkansen is different, and shorter. It is 1069,1 km.
Fastest Nozomi takes 296 minutes for the distance - but it is the fists morning train. Over the day, Nozomis take at least 304 minutes. So the top speed is 216,7 km/h.
Comparable CRH distances might be Beijing-Nanjing, 1023 km, and Beijing-Wuhan, real distance along CRH 1136 km.
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Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
though of course, as distance goes up and stations per km goes down, then of course average speed will be greater, so it stands to reason the longest CRH lines will have a better average speed compared to the more frequent stops of the Shinkansen (even the fastest ones make a good number of stops).
Nozomi makes standard 10 intermediate stops.
On Beijing-Nanjing, G33 has 7 stops and takes 4:28. But D315, that makes 11 stops, takes 7:59; D319 has 13 stops yet arrives in 7:13.
On Beijing-Hankou, G525 makes 11 stops and takes 5:38.
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Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
But speed isn't everything. When talking about specifications one needs to consider, frequency, positioning, safety, reliability, comfort etc. It's not just about raw speed.
My point is that Shinkansen actually stop at a lot of places - and mostly do so in established central city stations, where people work and public transport go. And still sustain high average speeds.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 11:33 PM   #7365
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In my opinion one of the most important things is integration of HS rail with other modes of transport. Not sure how good or not so good it currently is in China. For example if one arrives with HS rail in Beijing ending up in Beijing South station, how much extra time would be needed on average to reach city centre from there?

Rail systems are indeed adapted to host country needs, but what those needs are is not so obvious. Germans could have built more dedicated lines bypassing smaller cities and it would still be fine, same with Chinese building slightly slower system but taking care to stop in the city centre as much as possible.
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Old February 6th, 2014, 12:02 AM   #7366
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
In my opinion one of the most important things is integration of HS rail with other modes of transport. Not sure how good or not so good it currently is in China. For example if one arrives with HS rail in Beijing ending up in Beijing South station, how much extra time would be needed on average to reach city centre from there?
Beijing South is about 5km from Tiananmen Square. Shouldn't take more than 15 minutes by metro. This is indeed very close by Chinese standards. Shanghai Hongqiao and Guangzhou South would be around 15km (30 min.) while Shenzhen North about 8km (15min.). Shenzhen, however, is building an underground Futian CRH station which will be right under the main CBD.

Quote:
Rail systems are indeed adapted to host country needs, but what those needs are is not so obvious. Germans could have built more dedicated lines bypassing smaller cities and it would still be fine, same with Chinese building slightly slower system but taking care to stop in the city centre as much as possible.
Problem is that to build a station the size of Beijing South (or any of the large stations that they built over the past few years) it would take a good chunk of the city center to be wiped off the map. That would be too much.

I have posted this before but I think it's relevant to this point: pictures from Google Earth which give some idea about the size of those stations
image hosted on flickr


Compare it to some stations in Europe to have a better perception of the scale:
image hosted on flickr



Another option could be building underground stations. However that would probably be too much of an engineering challenge and not very cost effective. Shenzhen seems to be one of the few cases where they are actually building such a station (Futian). But Shenzhen is a new city in itself and it's probably much easier to do it there than it would be in most other cities. And even in spite of that it's nowhere near on the scale of the vast new overground stations.

Some CRH services do serve some old more centrally located stations but I guess their capacity is very limited.
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Old February 6th, 2014, 12:03 AM   #7367
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It doesn't really belong here, but there is no better place. According to rail journal.com currently 60% of high speed trains (capable of 200 km/h or more) are located in Western Europe and 38% in East Asia. China has the single largest number with about 20%. It is expected that by 2020 it will be about 50-40 between these two hotspots as some other areas also get into the game.
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Old February 6th, 2014, 12:07 AM   #7368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
It doesn't really belong here, but there is no better place. According to rail journal.com currently 60% of high speed trains (capable of 200 km/h or more) are located in Western Europe and 38% in East Asia. China has the single largest number with about 20%. It is expected that by 2020 it will be about 50-40 between these two hotspots as some other areas also get into the game.
What does is measure? Number of actual trainsets? Length of routes? Passenger kilometers?
Do you have a link?
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Old February 6th, 2014, 12:08 AM   #7369
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You have a valid point, although smaller sizes of stations in Paris and London are deceiving because both cities have multiple terminal stations of similar size. No chance whatsoever of fitting all Parisian train traffic in just Gare du Nord...
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Old February 6th, 2014, 12:09 AM   #7370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
What does is measure? Number of actual trainsets? Length of routes? Passenger kilometers?
Number of train sets capable of 200 km/h or more. It was an article about trends in rolling stock market.
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Old February 6th, 2014, 12:16 AM   #7371
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Number of train sets capable of 200 km/h or more. It was an article about trends in rolling stock market.
According to Wikipedia article on CRH, in 2011 China should have had 744 CRH trainsets most of which are capable of at least 200km/h.

How many 200+ km/h trainsets there are in Europe? Japan?

I just find it a little strange that China, Japan, Taiwan and South Korea would only account for 38% of all trainsets.
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Old February 6th, 2014, 12:23 AM   #7372
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Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
According to Wikipedia article on CRH, in 2011 China should have had 744 CRH trainsets most of which are capable of at least 200km/h.

How many 200+ km/h trainsets there are in Europe? Japan?

I just find it a little strange that China, Japan, Taiwan and South Korea would only account for 38% of all trainsets.
There are a lot of train sets in Europe capable of 200 km/h in places which do not have any 250 km/h+ traffic. In UK, for example, there are hundreds, many trains in Scandinavia are also capable of this speed. Of course France has an enormous fleet, all German ICE's can go that fast. It wasn't divided further among countries, but the total number they cite world-wide is about 3,200 train sets.
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Old February 6th, 2014, 12:25 AM   #7373
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Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
I just find it a little strange that China, Japan, Taiwan and South Korea would only account for 38% of all trainsets.
I think Korea and Taiwan is small potatoes here, from those 38% (assuming they counted accurately) 36% is probably just China and Japan.
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Old February 6th, 2014, 01:03 AM   #7374
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I think Korea and Taiwan is small potatoes here, from those 38% (assuming they counted accurately) 36% is probably just China and Japan.
My very rough calculation gives a number of HS trainsets in Japan somewhere in the range of 500 (is that anywhere near correct?). if so, then Japan, China, Korea and Taiwan combined should have something like 1500 trainsets. It's just hard for me to see where all the trainsets in Europe come from? There are 550+ in France, 200+ in UK, a hundred or so in Germany, 100+ in Spain. Italy? Russia? Still it probably makes it just over a 1000 trainsets.

Last edited by Pansori; February 6th, 2014 at 01:12 AM.
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Old February 6th, 2014, 02:02 AM   #7375
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I keep having this argument with a friend (and neither of us can find an answer though I think I'm right ): is there any data/figure for the percentage of new, PDL that are on viaducts?

He seems to think there was a decision to simply throw them up since maintenance would be less, which on its face seems silly. More importantly, I tend to view the decision to use viaducts - at least in the vast majority of systems around in the world - is a product of design and engineering (i.e. if we have to climb a mountain in another 100km, we either tunnel through it or cross it. If we do the latter, why not spend the last 150-200km climbing a gradual gradient than trying to scale it once we get there?)

This is going to go on until I can figure out some way to determine what the official design of the system seems to be.
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Old February 6th, 2014, 04:42 AM   #7376
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Originally Posted by doc7austin View Post
@Silly_Walks: If there are free seats, each passenger is free to relocate to that seat - thats certainly true for daytime trains in French, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany (and even China).
The conductor wont care, as long as you have ticket+reservation for right train and class.

I thought you are an experienced train traveller.
When you seat is sh*t and the train is empty - you think - you are not allowed to move?
And I hardly have seen a train, where really 100% of all seats were occupied.
Carriage was full, assigned seats were mandatory.
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Old February 6th, 2014, 04:51 AM   #7377
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the reason why the stations are located in suburbs is various

1. to get a bigger curve radius,to get a higher average speed.as i post several days ago,if stations are located in downtown ,you will need extra 15min.if there are too many stations,you will waste too much time.
BUT now,the number of stations has no influence on the average speed.

2. land in suburbs is much cheap,they have enough space to build a rail port.
the old stations have been built for decades,there are no space for new CRH trains.new stations are indeed a practical demand.

3.to develop a new CBD.stations always located in the core area of a city,they need new core aread.
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Old February 6th, 2014, 06:56 AM   #7378
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Is there really a country with unreliable and inconvenient high speed rail? I can't think of any. Complaints are mostly about non-existing HS rail...
Taiwan.

Before they built the spur lines connecting the downtown region to the station (usually built in unpopulated areas to save alignment costs), it could take up to 40 minutes to get to stations like Chiayi, Tainan, or Hsinchu. Since taking HSR only shaves off 2-3 hours of travel time (except for end-to-end trips) on intermediate trips, it becomes absurd to pay over twice the railfare to save little over an hour.

Example: Hsinchu to Tainan (Before Liujia and Shalun lines opened)

40min (to HSR station)
70min (HSR ride)
40min (to destination)

110 min (little under 2 hrs)
Price: 1160NT


10min (to TRA station)
140min (TRA train ride)
10min (to destination)

160min (2hrs 40min)
Price: 560NT


This is why THSR suffered from extremely low ridership in the beginning. It just didn't make sense at the time; and yet, despite all Republican beliefs that such a system would never work, THSR managed to kick out the airlines and break even.
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Old February 6th, 2014, 08:33 AM   #7379
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Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Problem is that to build a station the size of Beijing South (or any of the large stations that they built over the past few years) it would take a good chunk of the city center to be wiped off the map. That would be too much.

Some CRH services do serve some old more centrally located stations but I guess their capacity is very limited.
How big is Tokyo Station, for comparison?
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Old February 6th, 2014, 01:23 PM   #7380
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Quote:
Carriage was full,
In Thalys trains there are usually a number of non-reserved seats.

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assigned seats were mandatory.
Well, for almost all Thalys trains you need a reservation to enter.
It is mandatory to have a reservation(e.g. assigned seat).
However, it is not mandatory to sit at the reserved seats. Thats a big difference.

Quote:
Carriage was full,
Maybe you car was full.
Having travelled a number of times with Thalys, it is hard to believe that all seats in your class were occupied.
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