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Old February 26th, 2014, 12:00 PM   #7501
chornedsnorkack
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Now back to actual present question.
In Spring 2013, Harbin-Shenyang-Dalian high speed railway was sped up from 200 km/h to 300 km/h on 21st of April.
But as of Spring 2013, Harbin-Dalian railway had never been operated over 200 km/h.
As of Spring 2013, Dalian-Yingkou-Harbin high speed railway and Yingkou-Panjin high speed railway both have been operated at 300 km/h, in summer and autumn of 2013.

On which specific day of 2014 shall Dalian-Yingkou-Panjin and Yingkou-Harbin high speed railways be sped up over 200 km/h? Shall it be 21st of April again, or some different day this year?
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Old February 26th, 2014, 12:11 PM   #7502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
What do you claim the time and distance were?
In Dec 2009 when the Guangzhou South is still under construction,the first train of this line from Guangzhou North to Wuhan running 1069km in 2 hours and 46 mins. Maybe the real distance is not that one. today the fatest train takes 3 hours and 39 mins.That time the train has a top speed slightly above 350KM/H, about 355KM/H.Since the new Guangzhou South is finished,the trains spend too much time running from Guangzhou South to the North station.

Today the average speed is much slower than those days.there are 3 main reasom.
the first is that the speed has been limited to 310km/h.not the 355km/h.and when they arrange the timetable,for example,when you can finish the journy with 3 hours,they will write 3 hour and 15 mins in the table,and the drivers will follow the timetable,they will drive slightly above 290KM/H,and coud reach the destination on time.thus when a delay is happened they will drive a little faster at aroud 300+km/H,so you can see the train running at 310 km/h some time.we call this phenomenon that the timetable is too loose.

the second is that now the trains have too many stops,in past the train could pass the capital cities,and it is quite common.todayseldom.And several months ago,a ridulous rule has been send the drivers tha they can not accelerate the train too fast,to reduce the feeling tha pushing the back!!!! so absurd.

the last is that the time wasted in some mega cities in too much.Such as from Guangzhou South to Guangzhou North,from Shenyang north to the real high speed line.this problem has been discussed on this thread about the position of the new railway station.

Some pictures

image hosted on flickr


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Old February 26th, 2014, 12:34 PM   #7503
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Here is video from Chinese website that the train passing the station with a speed of 355km/h,ONLY 11 sec,the train is missing.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzE2OTA5Mjk2.html
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Old February 26th, 2014, 02:52 PM   #7504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flankerjun View Post
In Dec 2009 when the Guangzhou South is still under construction,the first train of this line from Guangzhou North to Wuhan running 1069km in 2 hours and 46 mins. Maybe the real distance is not that one. today the fatest train takes 3 hours and 39 mins.That time the train has a top speed slightly above 350KM/H, about 355KM/H.Since the new Guangzhou South is finished,the trains spend too much time running from Guangzhou South to the North station.

Today the average speed is much slower than those days.there are 3 main reasom.
the first is that the speed has been limited to 310km/h.not the 355km/h.and when they arrange the timetable,for example,when you can finish the journy with 3 hours,they will write 3 hour and 15 mins in the table,and the drivers will follow the timetable,they will drive slightly above 290KM/H,and coud reach the destination on time.thus when a delay is happened they will drive a little faster at aroud 300+km/H,so you can see the train running at 310 km/h some time.we call this phenomenon that the timetable is too loose.

the second is that now the trains have too many stops,in past the train could pass the capital cities,and it is quite common.todayseldom.And several months ago,a ridulous rule has been send the drivers tha they can not accelerate the train too fast,to reduce the feeling tha pushing the back!!!! so absurd.

the last is that the time wasted in some mega cities in too much.Such as from Guangzhou South to Guangzhou North,from Shenyang north to the real high speed line.this problem has been discussed on this thread about the position of the new railway station.

Some pictures
Real distance between Wuhan and Guangzhou North is 922km which means at 2 hours 46 minutes the average speed would have been 333km/h. But did trains actually run between Wuhan and Guangzhou North in 2:46 as scheduled (I.e. NOT some kind if test or trial service) service? Is there any reliable source such as timetable from 2009?
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Old February 26th, 2014, 03:12 PM   #7505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Real distance between Wuhan and Guangzhou North is 922km which means at 2 hours 46 minutes the average speed would have been 333km/h. But did trains actually run between Wuhan and Guangzhou North in 2:46 as scheduled service?
YEP, these train are those with no stop,on Dec 26,2009,the first train leave Guangzhou North staiton at 9:00 and reach Wuhan at 11:46. Those have more stops are slower
TEST run has a top speed 394KM/H

Last edited by flankerjun; February 26th, 2014 at 04:08 PM.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 09:49 PM   #7506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flankerjun View Post
<snip>
It will be nice to see those type of numbers again.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 11:40 PM   #7507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Judging from that speed profile average speed is certainly not 310km/h. Perhaps around 275-280km/h. This is matching with known fastest average speeds between Beijing and Shanghai or Beijing and Guangzhou where fastest services do something in the range of 265-280km/h average.

At 350km/h max for longer distances with few stops it's realistic to achieve 310-320km/h average. With 380km/h max it could be up to 340-350km/h average at the most. It's virtually impossible to achieve 370km/h average with 380km/h max or 340km/h with 350km/h respectively.
The drops in speed on that plot is due to GPS losing the signal in the tunnels. So average speed is 310km/h.

Also, even if the drops were stops, this does not change the point I am trying to make. Trains do not slow down drastically in any section of the line and keep the speed around 310km/h.

Anyhow, it is not that important. When we have non-stop 380km/h trains between Beijing and Shanghai, we will see the speed profile.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 11:41 PM   #7508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flankerjun View Post
Amazing picture, thanks for sharing, any chance higher res?
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Old February 27th, 2014, 02:22 AM   #7509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Judging from that speed profile average speed is certainly not 310km/h. Perhaps around 275-280km/h. This is matching with known fastest average speeds between Beijing and Shanghai or Beijing and Guangzhou where fastest services do something in the range of 265-280km/h average.

At 350km/h max for longer distances with few stops it's realistic to achieve 310-320km/h average. With 380km/h max it could be up to 340-350km/h average at the most. It's virtually impossible to achieve 370km/h average with 380km/h max or 340km/h with 350km/h respectively.
I think your original question was whether the train can sustain the declared operating speed, we are not talking about the average speed for the whole trip, which includes stops. Yaohua's speed profile shows that it can, since the train was able to run at 310km/h for more than an hour at a time. When we had non stop 350km/h trains on Shanghai-Nanjing ICL for the most part of the trip the speed was above 340km/h, peaking at 355km/h.
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Old February 27th, 2014, 03:08 AM   #7510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
I think your original question was whether the train can sustain the declared operating speed, we are not talking about the average speed for the whole trip, which includes stops. Yaohua's speed profile shows that it can, since the train was able to run at 310km/h for more than an hour at a time. When we had non stop 350km/h trains on Shanghai-Nanjing ICL for the most part of the trip the speed was above 340km/h, peaking at 355km/h.
I am well aware that trains in China can sustain 350km/h on any of the 350km/h line but that was not part of my question. My question was whether same applies to 380km/h.

From Wikipedia on CRH380A
Quote:
The CRH380A is designed to operate at a cruise speed of 350 km/h (217 mph) and a maximum of 380 km/h (236 mph) in commercial service
Wikipedia on Jinghu line
Quote:
According to Zhang Shuguang, then deputy chief designer of China's high-speed railway network, the designed continuous operating speed is 350 km/h (217 mph), with a maximum speed of up to 380 km/h (236 mph).
Also
Quote:
The average commercial speed from Beijing to Shanghai was planned to be 330 km/h
I don't know exactly what this means but I assume that 350km/h is the continuous sustained speed while 380km/h is a peak speed for limited periods of time and not a continuous sustained speed (or cruise speed).


Yaohua's speed profile shows that currently trains can run continuously at 310km/h which we already know and noone's been questioning that. We are also well aware about the sustainability of 350km/h speeds and that is indeed well documented since as early as 2008. However that has nothing to do with my question about sustained speed of 380km/h which is not documented and some sources (such as ones I quoted) imply that 380km/h is something other than 'continuous operating speed' (read NOT continuous operating speed). The proposed average speed (330km/h) is also indicating that typical max speed would be in the range of 350km/h rather than 380km/h. If a train between Shanghai and Beijing would run at sustained 380km/h maximum speed with no stops the average speed should be somewhere around 350-360km/h.

Therefore all the data that we know points to a reasonable assumption that 380km/h was indeed not intended to be the cruise speed but merely max speed for certain cases such as necessity to catch up with timetable while 350-360km/h would be the typical cruise speed for most of the trip.

I am pretty sure it should be possible to run trains at sustained max speed of 380km/h (or even faster) all the way from Beijing to Shanghai but would that be practical due to wear and tear?

Last edited by Pansori; February 27th, 2014 at 03:27 AM.
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Old February 27th, 2014, 05:06 AM   #7511
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I have the same exact question. I hear about wear and tear but what exactly is being worn so much at 380km/h vs 300km/h.

Still waiting on the CRH500 to see the open rails!
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Old February 27th, 2014, 11:51 AM   #7512
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I have the same exact question. I hear about wear and tear but what exactly is being worn so much at 380km/h vs 300km/h.
Wheels perhaps?
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Old February 27th, 2014, 01:28 PM   #7513
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Quote:
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Wheels perhaps?
It's not just that, the overhead lines, rails and panto all need to be checked.
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Old February 27th, 2014, 02:32 PM   #7514
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It's not just that, the overhead lines, rails and panto all need to be checked.
Yes of course. I forgot about that. Anything that has increased friction due to higher speeds.
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Old February 27th, 2014, 03:33 PM   #7515
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Are there any plans for any high speed trains to ever get through Guilin, to connect Changsha and Nanning?
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Old February 27th, 2014, 03:46 PM   #7516
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Yes of course. I forgot about that. Anything that has increased friction due to higher speeds.
And this wear and tear is not just 25% (3800 vs 300 km/h) more but much more as wear is rising exponentially with speed not linear. That was proven numerous times in other countries therefore trains still don't run faster than 320 km/h although many lines allow 350 km/h operation or even more.
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Old February 27th, 2014, 03:46 PM   #7517
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Occupancy in HSR

What is the occupancy percentage of the high speed trains?
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Old February 27th, 2014, 04:26 PM   #7518
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Are there any plans for any high speed trains to ever get through Guilin, to connect Changsha and Nanning?
This?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunan%E...uangxi_Railway
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._China.svg.png
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Old February 27th, 2014, 04:47 PM   #7519
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Railway line exists. Services donīt.
There are 3 daily G trains Changsha-Guilin (G535, G537, G529) - all of which terminate at Guilin and none gets through. There are 8 daily D trains Nanning-Guilin (D8202...8210, D8214, D8252, D8254) all of which terminate at Guilin and none gets through.
So are there any plans for any high speed train to ever get through Guilin?
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Old February 27th, 2014, 05:43 PM   #7520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
I am well aware that trains in China can sustain 350km/h on any of the 350km/h line but that was not part of my question. My question was whether same applies to 380km/h.
I think the same applies to 380km/h because before CRH380A existing models (CRH2C, CRH3C) can already run at sustained 350km/h speed. Since they decided to design a whole new train with a 380 designation that implies it should be able to sustain that speed. Now to the second part of your question about whether it's practical or economical to run at that speed, my opinion would be no, the wear and tear plus maintenance cost of both the rolling stock and the tracks will be too much to bear. Remembered CRH380A was developed as a 400km/h CRH400A, but the planners backed down from that goal and artificially lowered the operating speed, the train can sustain that speed, but the railway bureau can't.
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