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Old March 15th, 2014, 03:16 PM   #7661
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^
I agree in Europe would be impossible to see something of similar considering all the laws existing about environmental assessment...
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Old March 15th, 2014, 04:20 PM   #7662
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Rencently I found that diplomats in China seem to love the HSR very much.this picture is from weibo of Embassy of Sweden
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Old March 15th, 2014, 04:26 PM   #7663
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Is there any reason they shouldn't?
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Old March 15th, 2014, 04:27 PM   #7664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
This particular picture illustrates very clearly cultural differences and approach to infrastructure construction between China and the West. It's a spectacular viaduct, but no way an analogous structure would have been approved in Europe.


On another note, is it likely that aviation industry in China ups its game in the next 5-10 years and gives a more serious competition to HSR for routes longer than 600-700 km?
European politicians wouldn't allow it for a host of reasons, most of which are based around cultural heritage and 'spoiling the view'. Given that China threw away most of its cultural heritage during the cultural revolution, they can start from the ground up, and create a new kind of national image, a kind of post industrial forest of infrastructure.

The aviation industry can only really improve in China if the PLA cedes control of the nation's airspace. The reason for the horrible domestic on-time record is due to planes queuing to get through narrow greenlit corridors.
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Old March 15th, 2014, 07:11 PM   #7665
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
This particular picture illustrates very clearly cultural differences and approach to infrastructure construction between China and the West. It's a spectacular viaduct, but no way an analogous structure would have been approved in Europe.


On another note, is it likely that aviation industry in China ups its game in the next 5-10 years and gives a more serious competition to HSR for routes longer than 600-700 km?
Not really... That is the flood area of the river, you have to build it like that no matter where you are, if you want to have 350km/h train line.
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Old March 15th, 2014, 07:16 PM   #7666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worldwide70rm View Post
^
I agree in Europe would be impossible to see something of similar considering all the laws existing about environmental assessment...


2 seconds google search, Spain:



As a side note, I have to say that opposing a high speed rail line due to environmental concerns is mental especially if it is on viaducts.
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Last edited by foxmulder; March 15th, 2014 at 07:23 PM.
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Old March 15th, 2014, 07:34 PM   #7667
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Perhaps it was not the best chosen example, but the point is still valid. Most of what is built in China on viaducts in Europe would be built at grade, in a tunnel, in a cutting or not at all.

Last edited by Sunfuns; March 15th, 2014 at 07:49 PM.
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Old March 15th, 2014, 07:42 PM   #7668
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Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Not really... That is the flood area of the river, you have to build it like that no matter where you are, if you want to have 350km/h train line.
Yes, and therefore it could face the fate of not being built at all in Europe.
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Old March 16th, 2014, 01:02 AM   #7669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Perhaps it was not the best chosen example, but the point is still valid. Most of what is built in China on viaducts in Europe would be built at grade, in a tunnel, in a cutting or not at all.
One of the major reason for China to build in on viaduct is to minimize environmental impact, so it doesn't cut off waterways, migration routes, wetlands, floodplains, etc. The other reason being reducing land acquisition cost.
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Old March 16th, 2014, 01:10 AM   #7670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
One of the major reason for China to build in on viaduct is to minimize environmental impact, so it doesn't cut off waterways, migration routes, wetlands, floodplains, etc. The other reason being reducing land acquisition cost.
I know that, but what apparently doesn't come into discussion, but would in Europe is the visual impact. For cultural reasons people here prefer that the infrastructure is less "visible"... Sometimes that's not possible, but then it is that is the direction taken.
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Old March 16th, 2014, 01:43 AM   #7671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I know that, but what apparently doesn't come into discussion, but would in Europe is the visual impact. For cultural reasons people here prefer that the infrastructure is less "visible"... Sometimes that's not possible, but then it is that is the direction taken.
I find elevated railways extremely pleasing scene. I wish I had them as the view from my windows.

I don't buy the visual impact reasoning for Europe either, anyway. Europe is full of autobahns etc. Frankly, I think only real reason can be the budget. Anyhow, it is not that important. If Europe does not want to build them for any reason, they shouldn't. But, Chinese building them is not a sign of "distaste" or "environmental neglect".
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Old March 16th, 2014, 02:02 AM   #7672
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
I find elevated railways extremely pleasing scene. I wish I had them as the view from my windows.

I don't buy the visual impact reasoning for Europe either, anyway. Europe is full of autobahns etc. Frankly, I think only real reason can be the budget. Anyhow, it is not that important. If Europe does not want to build them for any reason, they shouldn't. But, Chinese building them is not a sign of "distaste" or "environmental neglect".
I never claimed it is, just made a point about apparent cultural differences. As for analogous structures here I assure you budget is not the main reason.
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Old March 16th, 2014, 02:47 AM   #7673
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Quote:
Europe is full of autobahns etc
Just criss-crossing the sky, miles high!

lol.
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Old March 16th, 2014, 02:59 AM   #7674
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^Troll Failure

Google ANY country + railroad + viaduct. You'll see plenty of relevant results.

Thus when you guys say these viaducts are a product of a cultural desert, or environmental negligence, you're either ignorant or willfully ignorant.

Why are viaducts built elsewhere?

Why does the iconic photo of the Shinkansen with the Mt. Fuji backdrop contain a viaduct?

Why are other railways (worldwide) being upgraded to viaducts now?

The "objective" reasons for viaducts are relatively simple:

-higher density and cross traffic underneath
-a need to avoid crossing accidents
-water or floodplain underneath
-undulating terrain underneath

Last edited by particlez; March 16th, 2014 at 03:05 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old March 16th, 2014, 06:33 AM   #7675
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I never claimed it is, just made a point about apparent cultural differences. As for analogous structures here I assure you budget is not the main reason.
I am not sure which Western country you are talking about but all I see budget cuts etc... Last thing they want to spend on is infrastructure.

And I also know that all countries glorify their engineering achievements. If even one these 350km/h lines were, for example, in England they would be writing Epics about it.
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Old March 16th, 2014, 11:07 AM   #7676
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
I am not sure which Western country you are talking about but all I see budget cuts etc... Last thing they want to spend on is infrastructure.

And I also know that all countries glorify their engineering achievements. If even one these 350km/h lines were, for example, in England they would be writing Epics about it.
There is a fair bit of infrastructure spending despite constant moaning about lack of money. It's not at Chinese levels, but it doesn't need to be because unlike in China infrastructure was already pretty good 15 years ago.

Some of the grandest projects currently in construction, recently finished or about to start: Gotthard Base tunnel in Switzerland (longest in the world), Tours-Bordeaux HS line in France (300 km), many HS lines in Spain and Italy, Crossrail project in London, bridge between Sweden and Denmark and Denmark and Germany, Brenner Base tunnel in Austria. Less sexy but still a lot of money being spent on massive rail electrification programs in UK and Denmark, huge autobahn building programs in Eastern Europe (particularly Poland). I bet if you put it all together there are hundreds of billions being spent on various road and rail project across EU and associated countries.
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Old March 16th, 2014, 11:39 AM   #7677
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
How is that possible? At 200 km/h, it is not possible to cover 208 km in 1 hour!

Click where?
It's likely that speed with be increased and real speeds are greater.

It's very common to ride on a 250kms/h train that is at 256kms/h. Speeds are displayed, usually they are a bit over the stated max velocity.

200 at 208 is within tolerances and I would expect, given the recent trend to increase many lines' speeds 10% or so, that 'A 200km/h CRH line' would actually run at up to 210 to 220.

Average speeds are anything from 82% to 96% of claimed official rated maximum. This depends on the line, before/after early 2011, number of stops, length of the line, "express", and whether the engineer has more or less leeway to exceed a figure.

Source:
First and second class tickets and watching the velocity display on trips across China. Timing the trip, and using official CRH line lengths.
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Old March 16th, 2014, 04:00 PM   #7678
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Update :Hangzhou to Nanchang section








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Old March 16th, 2014, 04:01 PM   #7679
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Old March 16th, 2014, 05:20 PM   #7680
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an article about China HSR from foreignpolicy
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...chinese_trains
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