daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 23rd, 2014, 03:29 AM   #7941
INGBN
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 6
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by flankerjun View Post
China railway Corporation release some data about railway update to 2013.

locomotive:20,835, electrical loco:52.1%,Disel loco:47.8%.HX serises :7017
passenger coach:58,820
freight coach:688,042
total railway length:103,144 KM (64,090.7 miles)
double track lines:48,274 KM (29,996 miles)
Electrified lines: 55,811 KM (34679.3 miles)
amount of bullet train: 1308
Hi,I have four questions.

1. I wonder if you could give me the source of this information?

As you guys may know, I am writing a cost/benefit analysis about China HSR and would be deeply grateful for any help.

As Flankerjun wrote above, China now has 1308 bullet trains, but when I compare this to this Rolling_stock wikipedia link, I can only find orders for 1050 sets of trains.

2. Do you guys know where I can find how many trains China has now (1308 I assume) and how many they intend to have when the HSR system is largely finished by 2020, and the cost of them?

3. Can anyone of you share a copy of China Statistics Yearbook 2013? I found its website, but it seems like one has to buy it in China or so.


I am also trying to find a good cost-driver (a factor that best explains variation in operating costs) for operating costs (salary, maintenance etc). A reasonable assumption would be two split operating costs into two - salary is driven by number of employees, maintenance by number of trains and all other costs by number of stations (maybe). But I need more detailed information about this, like how many people work at CRH, how many they plan to hire by 2020.

4. Where can one find more information about the operating costs? Doesn´t China Railways have a financial report?

Thanks in advance!
INGBN no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old April 23rd, 2014, 04:53 AM   #7942
big-dog
Registered User
 
big-dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,080
Likes (Received): 6840

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Rearrange the list:

Where are the 16 railways of Wuhan? I count just 3 (1 opened, 2 planning).
Not all planned intercity rails are on my list. The planned 16 intercity rails around Wuhan are,
  1. Wuhan-Xiangyang-Shiyan
  2. Tianhe Airport-Huangpi
  3. Wuhan-Tianmen
  4. Jingmen-Jingzhou
  5. Tianmen-Jingmen
  6. Yichang-Jingmen
  7. Xianning-Chibi
  8. Yunmeng-Yingcheng
  9. Huangpi-Xinzhou-Huangzhou
  10. Gedian-Jiangxia-Hannan-Hanchuan-Xiaogan
  11. Huangzhou-Luotian-Yingshan-Anqing
  12. Wuhan-Qianjiang
  13. Yichang-Jingzhou-Qianjiang
  14. Xiangyang-Jingmen
  15. Chibi-Yueyang
  16. Jingzhou-Changde

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
And if Shanghai-Nanning has opened, is it short distance?
it should be Shanghai-Nanjing, a typo.
__________________

maginn, chornedsnorkack liked this post
big-dog no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2014, 06:28 AM   #7943
flankerjun
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Shenyang/Wuhan
Posts: 461
Likes (Received): 1230

Quote:
Originally Posted by INGBN View Post
Hi,I have four questions.

1. I wonder if you could give me the source of this information?

As you guys may know, I am writing a cost/benefit analysis about China HSR and would be deeply grateful for any help.

As Flankerjun wrote above, China now has 1308 bullet trains, but when I compare this to this Rolling_stock wikipedia link, I can only find orders for 1050 sets of trains.

2. Do you guys know where I can find how many trains China has now (1308 I assume) and how many they intend to have when the HSR system is largely finished by 2020, and the cost of them?

3. Can anyone of you share a copy of China Statistics Yearbook 2013? I found its website, but it seems like one has to buy it in China or so.


I am also trying to find a good cost-driver (a factor that best explains variation in operating costs) for operating costs (salary, maintenance etc). A reasonable assumption would be two split operating costs into two - salary is driven by number of employees, maintenance by number of trains and all other costs by number of stations (maybe). But I need more detailed information about this, like how many people work at CRH, how many they plan to hire by 2020.

4. Where can one find more information about the operating costs? Doesn´t China Railways have a financial report?

Thanks in advance!
I get this information from China railway Corpration,if you can read Chinese,http://www.nra.gov.cn/fwyd/zlzx/hytj...40410_5830.htm

Sadly,there are no open Financial Report,I find a detail report but it needs USD4500.
I have to tell you that the information in WIKI is quite out of date.the number i post is updating to 2013,and every single day there are new trains,locos and others put in use.
last year,to meet the demand for the spring festival,Rolling stocks in China produced more than 200 sets of bullet train in 2 months.
there are no "intend" for 2020,to pedict what will happen in China in 2020 is quite stupid,so many experts to predict things in China,they are all wrong,China is a country Changing so fast,we do not know the demand in 2020,so there is no "intend" but it depands on the situation in 2020.
flankerjun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2014, 07:58 AM   #7944
foxmulder
Registered User
 
foxmulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,135
Likes (Received): 382

Quote:
Originally Posted by INGBN View Post
Hi,I have four questions.

1. I wonder if you could give me the source of this information?

As you guys may know, I am writing a cost/benefit analysis about China HSR and would be deeply grateful for any help.

As Flankerjun wrote above, China now has 1308 bullet trains, but when I compare this to this Rolling_stock wikipedia link, I can only find orders for 1050 sets of trains.

2. Do you guys know where I can find how many trains China has now (1308 I assume) and how many they intend to have when the HSR system is largely finished by 2020, and the cost of them?

3. Can anyone of you share a copy of China Statistics Yearbook 2013? I found its website, but it seems like one has to buy it in China or so.


I am also trying to find a good cost-driver (a factor that best explains variation in operating costs) for operating costs (salary, maintenance etc). A reasonable assumption would be two split operating costs into two - salary is driven by number of employees, maintenance by number of trains and all other costs by number of stations (maybe). But I need more detailed information about this, like how many people work at CRH, how many they plan to hire by 2020.

4. Where can one find more information about the operating costs? Doesn´t China Railways have a financial report?

Thanks in advance!
I don't know about the 2013 one but 2011 and 2012 editions are sold at amazon.
foxmulder no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2014, 08:42 AM   #7945
Restless
Registered User
 
Restless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,170
Likes (Received): 271

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
I don't know about the 2013 one but 2011 and 2012 editions are sold at amazon.
I remember downloading some excel tables from the NBS yearbooks, but I remember it was a hassle as I had to use Internet Explorer 6. Link to the latest one below

http://www.stats.gov.cn/tjsj/ndsj/2013/indexee.htm
Restless no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2014, 08:52 AM   #7946
Restless
Registered User
 
Restless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,170
Likes (Received): 271

Quote:
Originally Posted by INGBN View Post
Hi,I have four questions.

1. I wonder if you could give me the source of this information?

As you guys may know, I am writing a cost/benefit analysis about China HSR and would be deeply grateful for any help.

As Flankerjun wrote above, China now has 1308 bullet trains, but when I compare this to this Rolling_stock wikipedia link, I can only find orders for 1050 sets of trains.

2. Do you guys know where I can find how many trains China has now (1308 I assume) and how many they intend to have when the HSR system is largely finished by 2020, and the cost of them?

3. Can anyone of you share a copy of China Statistics Yearbook 2013? I found its website, but it seems like one has to buy it in China or so.


I am also trying to find a good cost-driver (a factor that best explains variation in operating costs) for operating costs (salary, maintenance etc). A reasonable assumption would be two split operating costs into two - salary is driven by number of employees, maintenance by number of trains and all other costs by number of stations (maybe). But I need more detailed information about this, like how many people work at CRH, how many they plan to hire by 2020.

4. Where can one find more information about the operating costs? Doesn´t China Railways have a financial report?

Thanks in advance!
There are fairly good cost/revenue/passenger details for the SJ-BJ and BJ-TJ lines, but I haven't seen anything similar for the other lines.

I'd go to John Scales at the World Bank below, as he is probably working on something similar already.

http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/pre...ay-development
http://documents.worldbank.org/curat...elopment-china

But remember that the main cost driver of a railway is the huge upfront investment which results in interest and repayment costs. These dwarf the ongoing operating costs.

And I'd disregard the 2020 date, as the network will still be expanding and adding trains to match growing demand.
Restless no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2014, 09:39 AM   #7947
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,978
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
Not all planned intercity rails are on my list. The planned 16 intercity rails around Wuhan are,
  • ...
  • Wuhan-Tianmen
  • Jingmen-Jingzhou
  • Tianmen-Jingmen
  • Yichang-Jingmen
  • ...
  • Wuhan-Qianjiang
  • Yichang-Jingzhou-Qianjiang
Sounds there are 3 high speed railways Wuhan-Yichang:
Wuhan-Tianmen-Jingmen-Yichang
Wuhan-Qianjiang-Jingzhou-Yichang
the existing Wuhan-Yichang

Is the existing high speed railway Wuhan-Yichang also an Intercity railway?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2014, 11:24 AM   #7948
big-dog
Registered User
 
big-dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,080
Likes (Received): 6840

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Sounds there are 3 high speed railways Wuhan-Yichang:
Wuhan-Tianmen-Jingmen-Yichang
Wuhan-Qianjiang-Jingzhou-Yichang
the existing Wuhan-Yichang

Is the existing high speed railway Wuhan-Yichang also an Intercity railway?
The existing Wuhan-Yichang rail is part of Shanghai-Chongqing HSR. The planned intercity rails between Wuhan-Yichang mainly serve the intermediary cities and provincial areas.
big-dog no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2014, 12:03 PM   #7949
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,978
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
Not all planned intercity rails are on my list. The planned 16 intercity rails around Wuhan are,
  • ...
  • Tianhe Airport-Huangpi
  • ...
  • Huangpi-Xinzhou-Huangzhou
  • ...
  • Huangzhou-Luotian-Yingshan-Anqing
  • ...
And intercity railway Nanjing-Anqing is under construction.

Does it mean that an intercity railway Shanghai-Nanjing-Anqing-Yingshan-Luotian-Huangzhou-Xinzhou-Huangpi-Tianhe airport should be built?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2014, 12:06 PM   #7950
big-dog
Registered User
 
big-dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,080
Likes (Received): 6840

I don't know. Intercity rails are designed to resolve point-to-point traffic issues. It's not necessarily interconnected to each other. So they may or may not be linked together.
big-dog no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2014, 12:17 PM   #7951
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,978
Likes (Received): 388

The under construction "intercity" lines are:
  1. Changsha-Zhuzhou-Xiangtan Inter-city Rail (U/C)
  2. Chengdu-Chongqing Inter-city Rail (U/C)
  3. Chengdu-Mianyang-Leshan Inter-city Rail (U/C)
  4. Chongqing-Wanzhou Inter-city Rail (U/C)
  5. Dandong-Dalian Inter-city Rail (U/C)
  6. Dongguan-Huizhou Inter-city Rail (U/C)
  7. Guangzhou-Foshan-Zhaoqing Inter-city Rail (U/C)
  8. Harbin-Qiqihar Inter-city Rail (U/C)
  9. Nanjing-Anqing Inter-city Rail (U/C)
  10. Qingdao-Rongcheng Inter-city Rail (U/C)
  11. Wuhan-Huangshi-Huanggang Inter-city Rail (U/C)
  12. Wuhan-Xiaogan Inter-city Rail (U/C)
  13. Shenyang-Dandong Inter-city Rail (U/C)
  14. Tianjin-Baoding Inter-city Rail (U/C)
  15. Zhengzhou-Jiaozuo Inter-city Rail (U/C)
  16. Zhengzhou-Kaifeng Inter-city Rail (U/C)

Are the opening due dates of these lines known?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2014, 12:36 PM   #7952
big-dog
Registered User
 
big-dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,080
Likes (Received): 6840

Not all of them. Most of them will open this year or next year.
big-dog no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2014, 01:03 PM   #7953
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,978
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
Per wiki "Inter-city rail services are express passenger train services that cover longer distances than commuter or regional trains."

Inter-city rails works best in densely populated city clusters. In China almost all inter-city rails are high-speed rails. Due to lack of commuter rails some inter-city lines often serve the purpose of commuter rails with city metros.

The existing and planning inter-city HSR rails are,
You say "almost all" inter-city rails are high-speed rails. Almost all. Not all.
Are there any inter-city rails which are not high-speed rails?
The list you provide is just inter-city HSR rails, so any slow-speed intercity rails are excluded from the list. Now looking at the existing railways:
  1. Beijing-Tianjin Inter-city Rail (Opened)
  2. Changchun-Jilin Inter-city Rail (Opened)
  3. Chengdu-Dujiangyan Inter-city Rail (Opened)
  4. Guangzhou-Zhuhai Inter-city Rail (Opened)
  5. Liuzhou-Nanning Inter-city Rail (Opened)
  6. Nanchang-Jiujiang Inter-city Rail (Opened)
  7. Nanjing-Hangzhou Inter-city Rail (Opened)
  8. Wuhan-Xianning Inter-city Rail (Opened)
  9. Shanghai-Nanjing Inter-city Rail (Opened)
  10. Shenyang-Fushun Inter-city Rail (Opened)

A quite diverse bunch! Little in common to underlie a common designation as "intercity".
Look at Nanjing-Hangzhou, called "intercity". Yet it is, in fact, a key link of long distance network. Consider the schedule Hangzhou-Jinan! 14 G trains, of which just 2 make the huge detour via Shanghai - the other 12 go direct via Hangzhou-Nanjing railway.
Or take Nanning-Liuzhou. Supposedly an intercity railway. Liuzhou-Guilin is not in your list. Yet there are 10 trains daily Nanning-Liuzhou, and only 1 of them does not go on to Guilin, late in the evening. In what sense is Nanning-Liuzhou intercity and Liuzhou-Guilin not?

Also, where is the supposed Shenyang-Fushun intercity railway? I could find only K and number trains on that line.
By contrast to Nanning-Liuzhou, Zhuhai-Guangzhou looks thoroughly disconnected. Although it terminates at Guangzhou South station, all trains do - not a single train from Zhuhai appears to continue direct to Changsha or Shenzhen.
__________________

maginn liked this post
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2014, 02:00 PM   #7954
gdolniak
Mememe...
 
gdolniak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 190
Likes (Received): 29

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
You say "almost all" inter-city rails are high-speed rails. Almost all. Not all.
Are there any inter-city rails which are not high-speed rails?
The list you provide is just inter-city HSR rails, so any slow-speed intercity rails are excluded from the list. Now looking at the existing railways:
  1. Beijing-Tianjin Inter-city Rail (Opened)
  2. Changchun-Jilin Inter-city Rail (Opened)
  3. Chengdu-Dujiangyan Inter-city Rail (Opened)
  4. Guangzhou-Zhuhai Inter-city Rail (Opened)
  5. Liuzhou-Nanning Inter-city Rail (Opened)
  6. Nanchang-Jiujiang Inter-city Rail (Opened)
  7. Nanjing-Hangzhou Inter-city Rail (Opened)
  8. Wuhan-Xianning Inter-city Rail (Opened)
  9. Shanghai-Nanjing Inter-city Rail (Opened)
  10. Shenyang-Fushun Inter-city Rail (Opened)

[...]
One more line: Guangzhou East - Shenzhen. One of the first Inter-city Rails opened in China.
__________________

maginn liked this post
gdolniak no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2014, 02:30 PM   #7955
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,978
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdolniak View Post
One more line: Guangzhou East - Shenzhen. One of the first Inter-city Rails opened in China.
Another very different example:
It is indeed one of the first intercity rails opened in China... in 1911
It has been 200 km/h. Never 200+ km/h... and I understand included in the Second Slowdown Campaign to 160 km/h.

What is the minimum distance for intercity rail, so that shorter rails are regional?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2014, 10:53 PM   #7956
hhzz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Guilin
Posts: 428
Likes (Received): 1274

Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR,April 23rd,2014

Constructions in Qinghai province,Western China.
1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

From chinanews.com
__________________

FM 2258, big-dog, foxmulder, geometarkv liked this post
hhzz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2014, 12:38 AM   #7957
hamstergogogo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 28
Likes (Received): 16

Found some rather interesting charts in this article[link fail] comparing the market shares of transportation modes in China. Since the overall traffic volume of Chinese passenger transport is growing, a steady market share of a particular mode indicates its growth is on par with the overall growth rate.







in short, HSR mostly absorbed the growth potential from conventional rail. overall neither highway nor aviation was affected by HSR, unless we assume that there would have been a drastic decline in conventional rail's market share had HSR not been introduced.

hmm, tried to add some of my comments regarding the charts but the system keeps telling me to check for forbidden words. wonder what they are actually
__________________

foxmulder, geometarkv liked this post

Last edited by hamstergogogo; April 24th, 2014 at 06:33 AM.
hamstergogogo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2014, 01:12 AM   #7958
mad1910
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Fortaleza
Posts: 19
Likes (Received): 7

Interesting charts!
mad1910 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2014, 03:32 AM   #7959
big-dog
Registered User
 
big-dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,080
Likes (Received): 6840

regular railway is the only one being squeezed.
big-dog no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2014, 04:23 AM   #7960
big-dog
Registered User
 
big-dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,080
Likes (Received): 6840

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
You say "almost all" inter-city rails are high-speed rails. Almost all. Not all.
Are there any inter-city rails which are not high-speed rails?
The list you provide is just inter-city HSR rails, so any slow-speed intercity rails are excluded from the list. Now looking at the existing railways:

A quite diverse bunch! Little in common to underlie a common designation as "intercity".
Look at Nanjing-Hangzhou, called "intercity". Yet it is, in fact, a key link of long distance network. Consider the schedule Hangzhou-Jinan! 14 G trains, of which just 2 make the huge detour via Shanghai - the other 12 go direct via Hangzhou-Nanjing railway.
Or take Nanning-Liuzhou. Supposedly an intercity railway. Liuzhou-Guilin is not in your list. Yet there are 10 trains daily Nanning-Liuzhou, and only 1 of them does not go on to Guilin, late in the evening. In what sense is Nanning-Liuzhou intercity and Liuzhou-Guilin not?

Also, where is the supposed Shenyang-Fushun intercity railway? I could find only K and number trains on that line.
By contrast to Nanning-Liuzhou, Zhuhai-Guangzhou looks thoroughly disconnected. Although it terminates at Guangzhou South station, all trains do - not a single train from Zhuhai appears to continue direct to Changsha or Shenzhen.
As for inter-city rail definition, per wiki, "There is no precise definition of inter-city rail; its meaning may vary from country to country. Most broadly, it can include any rail services that are neither short-distance commuter rail trains within one city area, nor slow regional rail trains calling at all stations and covering local journeys only. Most typically, an inter-city train is an express train with limited stops and comfortable carriages to serve long-distance travel."

In China inter-city rails are mostly built separately from long distance HSRs and designed to serve heavily populated area and resolve point-to-point traffic issue. Inter-city rails are mostly passenger/freight mixed rails while HSRs are passenger only rails.

Even in locally recognized standard of 200kmph some intercity rails are not high speed ones, i.e. Shenyang-Fushun is a 120kmph rail.

Hangzhou-Nanjing inter-city rail was built separately from Beijing-Shanghai HSR, it's not long distance. Of course due to its special geographic convenience a connection rail was built to link it with Beijing-Shanghai HSR, many other routes were added to use this line. But still in the network it doesn't belong to any long distance HSR routes.
big-dog no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
china, high speed rail

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium