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Old April 24th, 2014, 10:21 AM   #7961
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The article was presumably How did high-speed rail transform China’s regional transport sector? I found it while looking for a graph of transport in passenger-kilometers. The best of which so far has been this one (but it ends in 2008, the year the other graphs begin).

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Old April 24th, 2014, 10:51 AM   #7962
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
As for inter-city rail definition, per wiki, "There is no precise definition of inter-city rail; its meaning may vary from country to country. Most broadly, it can include any rail services that are neither short-distance commuter rail trains within one city area, nor slow regional rail trains calling at all stations and covering local journeys only. Most typically, an inter-city train is an express train with limited stops and comfortable carriages to serve long-distance travel."
But then it is the property of an individual train - not of railway line.
After all, say trains Cangzhou-Tianjin all run on the same Pukou-Tianjin railway line. Train 4446 stops at 4 intermediate stops and also offers only hard seats - by contrast T132 is nonstop and has hard and soft sleeper. So which of the trains is "regional" and which "intercity"? And is the railway line itself "intercity"?

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Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
Even in locally recognized standard of 200kmph some intercity rails are not high speed ones, i.e. Shenyang-Fushun is a 120kmph rail.
But how is it "intercity"? It is just 65 km. What makes it "intercity", not "commuter" or "regional" line?
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Old April 24th, 2014, 03:21 PM   #7963
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According to China Statistics Yearbook 2013, the p-km (in 100 millions) for railways were:

2009: 7878,9
2010: 8762,2
2011: 9612,3
2012: 9812,3

For HSR, the respective numbers were:

2009: 162,2
2010: 463,2
2011: 1058,4
2012: 1446,1

I got the excel files here, but don't know how to upload it as a picture.
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Old April 24th, 2014, 05:54 PM   #7964
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yeah, thanks for posting the link(seems my account was forbidden to do so due to newbie status)

this chart clearly shows the "dark age" for Chinese railways in the early 90s; the outdated railways were unable to compete with the buses on the newly built expressways( interestingly I think the situation in India is or will be kinda similar to that).

I was interested in seeing how the 'generated trips'(trips that would have never happened if HSRs were not built) by HSR grow, but it was hard for the world bank researchers to estimate that in the early years, and it becomes even harder now. I believe there are a lot of such trips, but they are just not significantly obvious to show up in any chart yet.

another thing is the freight capacity(darn, who could have thought f r e e d - u p freight capacity are forbidden words...), an important goal for HSRs. but due to the confounding economic impact on cargo rails, the statistics so far are quite disappointing.

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Last edited by hamstergogogo; April 24th, 2014 at 06:03 PM.
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Old April 24th, 2014, 09:18 PM   #7965
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The problem with the whole high speed intercity is that now Chinese cities start to call true commuter rail "intercity." The word "intercity/城际" is used to describe lines that are both connecting two cities, as well as connecting the downtown core to satellite towns. For example Nanjing's three commuter rail lines are all called intercity lines but they are pretty much metro company operated commuter rail trains (subway/light rail style, 100km/h).
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Old April 24th, 2014, 09:55 PM   #7966
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Which pretty much sums up that there's no point in looking for clear logic in such definitions. Because there doesn't seem to be any.
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Old April 25th, 2014, 05:52 AM   #7967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
The problem with the whole high speed intercity is that now Chinese cities start to call true commuter rail "intercity." The word "intercity/城际" is used to describe lines that are both connecting two cities, as well as connecting the downtown core to satellite towns. For example Nanjing's three commuter rail lines are all called intercity lines but they are pretty much metro company operated commuter rail trains (subway/light rail style, 100km/h).
Just to add more detail, Shaanxi Province is funding and building an 'Intercity' rail link from Xian south to Ankang and Chongqing Municipality is building an 'Intercity' rail link north to Dazhou along the same right of way adjacent to the G65. With some political wrangling and agreements it would be easy for each to then build up to a mid-way point and connect these two lines.

Both projects are local, not national. But the combined rail line would have the same infrastructure and would effectively be a National Level PDL from Xian to Chongqing.
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Old April 25th, 2014, 06:45 AM   #7968
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
But then it is the property of an individual train - not of railway line.
After all, say trains Cangzhou-Tianjin all run on the same Pukou-Tianjin railway line. Train 4446 stops at 4 intermediate stops and also offers only hard seats - by contrast T132 is nonstop and has hard and soft sleeper. So which of the trains is "regional" and which "intercity"? And is the railway line itself "intercity"?

But how is it "intercity"? It is just 65 km. What makes it "intercity", not "commuter" or "regional" line?
Inter-city rails are built separately from long distance ones and they don't belong to part of the later. People may call Shenyang-Fuzhun commuter rail but they are two heavily populated cities though they are close in distance.

This is how China's future commuter rail looks like,

Quote:
Originally Posted by flankerjun View Post
Look at this new train!!
it can run both at national rail line or metro line in cities.national rail line in China is AC 25KV,the metro line is DC 1.5KV.



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Old April 26th, 2014, 03:49 AM   #7969
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Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
Inter-city rails are built separately from long distance ones and they don't belong to part of the later. People may call Shenyang-Fuzhun commuter rail but they are two heavily populated cities though they are close in distance.

This is how China's future commuter rail looks like,
Some of these 'Intercity Rail' are not commuter rail but instead are local projects that connect cities with PDL level CRH line at 200kph. Similiar to the LIRR in New York, that is just a rail line for commuters on regular rail with full sized trainsets.

Cities in China are very closely spaced. Very.Closely.Spaced.

65kms can easily entail 3 cities in some parts of the country, 2 being much more likely.

65kms is also a long distance to the Chinese. Many people, often a majority, who live in the smaller cities never travel more than 25kms from their home. Ever. Big cities differ, but 30 million live in Shanghai and 1305 million do not...
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Old April 26th, 2014, 08:46 PM   #7970
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Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Some of these 'Intercity Rail' are not commuter rail but instead are local projects that connect cities with PDL level CRH line at 200kph. Similiar to the LIRR in New York, that is just a rail line for commuters on regular rail with full sized trainsets.

Cities in China are very closely spaced. Very.Closely.Spaced.

65kms can easily entail 3 cities in some parts of the country, 2 being much more likely.

65kms is also a long distance to the Chinese. Many people, often a majority, who live in the smaller cities never travel more than 25kms from their home. Ever. Big cities differ, but 30 million live in Shanghai and 1305 million do not...

Some interesting claims there so lets assume that the majority of people in small cities never travel more than 25 kms in any direction then the function of bus stations, train stations expressways and airports in those cities would be to transport the minority in those cities beyond the 25 km limit. Essentially the same people flying, driving, taking the train or bus.

In other words the average Chinese wouldn't travel any distance further than he or she could reasonably expected to walk in a single day. Essentially those born in small cities for the most part would never leave them under any circumstances.

These are presented as claims of fact so they either true or untrue. I don't have any facts to support either side of the argument but I would be interested in hearing from anybody that does. In claims of fact one needs facts surely there must be such a question on the last national census to this effect. It's the only way to canvass the entire population at the same time to gather the evidence to make such a claim.
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Old April 26th, 2014, 09:07 PM   #7971
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Some of these 'Intercity Rail' are not commuter rail but instead are local projects that connect cities with PDL level CRH line at 200kph. Similiar to the LIRR in New York, that is just a rail line for commuters on regular rail with full sized trainsets.

Cities in China are very closely spaced. Very.Closely.Spaced.

65kms can easily entail 3 cities in some parts of the country, 2 being much more likely.

65kms is also a long distance to the Chinese. Many people, often a majority, who live in the smaller cities never travel more than 25kms from their home. Ever. Big cities differ, but 30 million live in Shanghai and 1305 million do not...
I fail to grasp your point. Could elaborate on it? Are you trying to say people do not travel in China hence investment in transportation is not good or smt?
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Old April 27th, 2014, 08:51 PM   #7972
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Hi China HSR fans ,
I am almost finished with the cost-benefit analysis, and I would like to share it with those who want to read it. It is based on my interpretation and on my findings. Since much data is limited, and my Chinese is highly limited as well, I have taken some assumptions. It has about 5-6000 words. Note that I am just a university student, not a professional researcher.

Just PM me if you want to read it. If you find something wrong or suggestions to improvements in my report, I would be most delighted to hearing from you.
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Old April 27th, 2014, 08:56 PM   #7973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by INGBN View Post
Hi China HSR fans ,
I am almost finished with the cost-benefit analysis, and I would like to share it with those who want to read it. It is based on my interpretation and on my findings. Since much data is limited, and my Chinese is highly limited as well, I have taken some assumptions. It has about 5-6000 words. Note that I am just a university student, not a professional researcher.

Just PM me if you want to read it. If you find something wrong or suggestions to improvements in my report, I would be most delighted to hearing from you.
Good job!I am looking forward to read it.

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Old April 27th, 2014, 08:57 PM   #7974
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Originally Posted by INGBN View Post
Hi China HSR fans ,
I am almost finished with the cost-benefit analysis, and I would like to share it with those who want to read it. It is based on my interpretation and on my findings. Since much data is limited, and my Chinese is highly limited as well, I have taken some assumptions. It has about 5-6000 words. Note that I am just a university student, not a professional researcher.

Just PM me if you want to read it. If you find something wrong or suggestions to improvements in my report, I would be most delighted to hearing from you.
and I am curious what is your major?why do you do such a report?

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Old April 28th, 2014, 12:32 AM   #7975
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Quote:
Originally Posted by INGBN View Post
Hi China HSR fans ,
I am almost finished with the cost-benefit analysis, and I would like to share it with those who want to read it. It is based on my interpretation and on my findings. Since much data is limited, and my Chinese is highly limited as well, I have taken some assumptions. It has about 5-6000 words. Note that I am just a university student, not a professional researcher.

Just PM me if you want to read it. If you find something wrong or suggestions to improvements in my report, I would be most delighted to hearing from you.
If you post a summary of the key assumptions and figures, I'll check it against some of the figures I've got.
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Old April 28th, 2014, 08:29 AM   #7976
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Old April 28th, 2014, 11:16 AM   #7977
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Cities in China are very closely spaced. Very.Closely.Spaced.

65kms can easily entail 3 cities in some parts of the country, 2 being much more likely.
Um, there are fewer than 700 cities in China. And most Chinese live in big cities. Because there are fewer than 50 prefectures, autonomous prefectures and leagues taken together, and these tend to be in sparsely settled areas so have small population compared to the prefecture level cities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
65kms is also a long distance to the Chinese. Many people, often a majority, who live in the smaller cities never travel more than 25kms from their home. Ever. Big cities differ, but 30 million live in Shanghai and 1305 million do not...
China has about 1500 counties. The most populous county, Renshou County, has 1,57 million people. It spans 2600 square km. Which means it is more than 25 km from centre to border.

Do people in villages and towns need to go to county town sometimes for official business, or for shopping? Or are government powers and shops widely distributed so that a peasant never needs to leave the township or town neither on government business nor for shopping?
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Old April 28th, 2014, 02:50 PM   #7978
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flankerjun View Post
and I am curious what is your major?why do you do such a report?
My major is economics and business administration. We were given a task to write about an project of your own choice. Then I chose China HSR, because I like HSR and I am excited about how it's developing in China Even though my major is economics, I have been an engineering buff since I was a child.
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Old April 28th, 2014, 09:23 PM   #7979
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Um, there are fewer than 700 cities in China. And most Chinese live in big cities. Because there are fewer than 50 prefectures, autonomous prefectures and leagues taken together, and these tend to be in sparsely settled areas so have small population compared to the prefecture level cities.
You do not know what you are talking about.

You need to stop reading things online and posting from a position of knowing what you are talking about. You really don't know this subject, and that is the polite version of my assessment.

Most Chinese live in villages, towns and cities that have populations under a few hundred thousand.

When the phrase 'largest migration from rural to city in human history' is written, what you don't know is that when someone moves from their rural village to 'the city' that the move may consist of no more than crossing the street, and at most putting everything into the back of a three-wheeled one-cylinder 'truck' and driving a few kms at most. This consists of staying in the same 'county' as you reference them.

Those 'counties' that you read about on a webpage, all consist of what you would think of as a 'city' and surrounded by a large area of rural farmland dotted by villages, towns and small cities spaced apart by about 1 or 2 kms all across the eastern third of China.

You think everyone is moving a great distance from the countryside into one of the few large cities. They are not.

I do not recommend that any other forum members take Chorneds posts as being informed wrt China. He is clearly not.

You obvious don't live in China, you clearly read things online and take the position that the information you are reading reflects reality, and your lack of experience in China whilst projecting what a city and county is from your country onto China, reveals that you think you understand.

Stop posting as though you understand this topic.
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Old April 29th, 2014, 09:36 AM   #7980
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Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
You do not know what you are talking about.

You need to stop reading things online and posting from a position of knowing what you are talking about. You really don't know this subject, and that is the polite version of my assessment.

Most Chinese live in villages, towns and cities that have populations under a few hundred thousand.

When the phrase 'largest migration from rural to city in human history' is written, what you don't know is that when someone moves from their rural village to 'the city' that the move may consist of no more than crossing the street, and at most putting everything into the back of a three-wheeled one-cylinder 'truck' and driving a few kms at most. This consists of staying in the same 'county' as you reference them.

Those 'counties' that you read about on a webpage, all consist of what you would think of as a 'city' and surrounded by a large area of rural farmland dotted by villages, towns and small cities spaced apart by about 1 or 2 kms all across the eastern third of China.

You think everyone is moving a great distance from the countryside into one of the few large cities. They are not.

I do not recommend that any other forum members take Chorneds posts as being informed wrt China. He is clearly not.

You obvious don't live in China, you clearly read things online and take the position that the information you are reading reflects reality, and your lack of experience in China whilst projecting what a city and county is from your country onto China, reveals that you think you understand.

Stop posting as though you understand this topic.
1. The official urbanization rate is 52.5% Urban and that leaves 47.5% Rural that figure is from the China daily.

2. Now define the word "Urban" by Chinese standards.

3. Most Chinese live in villages, towns and small cities aka rural areas ,not according the official stats they don't

4. Where did you get the figure of 700 cities from?

5 There was a national census done in 2010 I assume the figure urbanization rate comes from that in fact right after that census was compiled the government claimed that they urbanization rate had reached 50% in China.

6. I do agree that unless you live in China one can't easily distinguish between reality and perception. But how is it possible to accurately convey the reality of a situation without being there yourself.


There is an old Indian parable of a King testing the wisdom of his wise men so he blindfolded each one and led them into a courtyard. In the courtyard there was an elephant and each wise man felt a piece of the elephant in his hand, one took the trunk, the other the tail another a leg and so on. After a time he took each wise man inside and asked each one to describe in detail what the animal looked like in reality. Each one gave a different version of the beast leading to many never ending arguments between them.

The moral of this story is each of us is blinded to some degree by our own ignorance and bais firmly believing their own version of reality sometimes at the exclusion of all others. Just because one version is right doesn't mean all others are wrong. Reality is a large beast nobody could touch all the beast . Each of us takes a small piece by putting smaller pieces together maybe we can understand the whole better.
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