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Old April 29th, 2014, 10:58 AM   #7981
chornedsnorkack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kunming tiger View Post
1. The official urbanization rate is 52.5% Urban and that leaves 47.5% Rural that figure is from the China daily.

2. Now define the word "Urban" by Chinese standards.
And that´s a bigger problem. Chinese government may know WHERE people live, but this does not mean that their classification of these places as "urban" or "rural" is what you would agree with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kunming tiger View Post
3. Most Chinese live in villages, towns and small cities aka rural areas ,not according the official stats they don't
A large part Chinese who live in towns ALSO live in villages, because large fraction of villages are parts of towns. (The rest of villages of China are parts of townships and of subdistricts).
However, many Chinese who live in towns also live in neighbourhoods instead of villages.
Notably, Changan in city of Dongguan is the biggest town. As of 2010 census, 664 000 people on less than 98 square km.
Does Changan consist of villages or of neighbourhoods? And would you call Changan a "rural area" just because it is a town and not a subdistrict?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kunming tiger View Post
4. Where did you get the figure of 700 cities from?
From the approximate number of about 300 prefecture level cities and 400 county level cities.
On closer examination, both had been slightly upwards rounded. The true total, current as of April 2014, is 657:
286 prefecture level cities
365 county level cities
4 municipalities
2 special administrative regions
Quote:
Originally Posted by kunming tiger View Post
The moral of this story is each of us is blinded to some degree by our own ignorance and bais firmly believing their own version of reality sometimes at the exclusion of all others. Just because one version is right doesn't mean all others are wrong. Reality is a large beast nobody could touch all the beast . Each of us takes a small piece by putting smaller pieces together maybe we can understand the whole better.
Agreed!
Now, another example of what "villages" are:
the richest village of China, Huaxi.
It is NOT a city. It is a part of prefecture level city - Suzhou. It also is a part of a county level city - Jiangyin.

Jiangyin consists of subdistricts and towns. But Huaxi is NOT a town, nor a subdistrict.
It is a part of one of towns in Jiangyin city.
The population of Huaxi village is counted as:
2000 citizens
20 344 "migrant workers"
28 240 "nearby villagers"
Total over 50 000
With population above 50 000, do you feel Huaxi Village is a rural area?
Yet it is a village. NOT a neighbourhood. Nor a town.

What kind of entity is "Great Huaxi"?

Last edited by chornedsnorkack; April 29th, 2014 at 11:08 AM.
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Old April 29th, 2014, 03:13 PM   #7982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kunming tiger View Post
3. Most Chinese live in villages, towns and small cities aka rural areas, not according the official stats they don't.
The stats lie.

If you live here, then you know that 'counties' in China often have a city at the centre, one that is not referred to as 'a city'. That county may also have several large towns or smaller cities spread about, in addition to the hundred's of villages that are spaced out every 500 - 2500 metres all over China.

You know that these 'towns' are not rural but urban in feel, with local city bus routes, many large public parks, multiple shopping malls, and such.

Villages I would concede as being rural, but a city of 20,000 to 60,000 in the middle of a rural area I would not.

Those villagers are moving the 2 kms into that 'city', even though it is not listed anywhere as being 'a city', but instead listed as a county, county-level city, direct administrative division, district or just an un-labeled part of a prefecture, province or other area.
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Old April 30th, 2014, 02:50 PM   #7983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
The stats lie.
Indeed. They describe certain official classifications, which do not exactly match what you or I want to know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
If you live here, then you know that 'counties' in China often have a city at the centre, one that is not referred to as 'a city'. That county may also have several large towns or smaller cities spread about, in addition to the hundred's of villages that are spaced out every 500 - 2500 metres all over China.
Indeed.
China has 623 669 villages (and 80 717 neighbourhoods). Since these belong to 2853 county level divisions (1456 counties, 169 autonomous counties and banners, 369 county level cities, 857 districts), an average of a few hundred villages is reasonable.
Since most of these 600 000 villages are in about 4 million square km of China Proper, a couple of km between villages is reasonable.
These 623 669 "villages" are administrative areas which span territory (xingzhengcun). But administrative division does not necessarily mean that all farmhouses are in one cluster and the rest of the village territory is empty fields. There might be houses scattered around the territory of the village - or clustered in several groups within a single administrative village, which may be called "natural village" (zirancun). Then these... "hamlets" may indeed be even closer to each other than villages, line 500 m.
Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
You know that these 'towns' are not rural but urban in feel, with local city bus routes, many large public parks, multiple shopping malls, and such.

Villages I would concede as being rural, but a city of 20,000 to 60,000 in the middle of a rural area I would not.
And I´d already call a concentrated settlement of 6000 people as something else than rural... whether it is a single populous "village" or several neighbouring villages making up an urban centre between them.

Of course, that I or you would call them urban does not mean Chinese government does.

So one type of urban areas that the government may not acknowledge is local centres... "boroughs" in countryside.
Another might be suburbs? "Villages" in outskirts of bigger cities might in fact function as suburbs already but not be recognized by government as "urban"?

Some official statistics, back from 2011:
City; Peasants, myriads; Total residents, myriads; Peasants, %
Dongguan; 94; 825; 11,4
Shenzhen; 0; 1047; 0
Guangzhou; 202; 1275; 15,8
Foshan; 37; 723; 5,1
Zhuhai; 19; 158; 12
Zhongshan; 38; 314; 12,1
Huizhou; 175; 463; 37,8
Jiangmen; 167; 447; 37,4
Zhaoqing; 227; 395; 57,5

Shanghai; 251; 2347; 10,7
Suzhou; 302; 1052; 28,7
Ningbo; 237; 763; 31,1
Hangzhou; 208; 874; 23,8
Nanjing; 164; 811; 20,2
Wuxi; 178; 643; 27,7

Total of China: 65656; 134735; 48,7

But something that rings warning bells for me: total lack of peasants in Shenzhen, while 940 000 peasants are found in Shenzhen. It is not just rounding because the 370 000 peasants of Foshan and 190 000 of Zhuhai are duly counted. I admit that Shenzhen may have fewer peasants than Dongguan, but none at all is suspicious.
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Old May 1st, 2014, 08:43 AM   #7984
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4.29 Construction of first Inner Mongolia HSR starts

Hohhot-Zhangjiakou HSR:

Length: 286.8km (211.3km in Inner Mongolia, 75.5km in Hebei Province)
Speed: 250kmph
Bridge/Tunnel: 62% of total length
Cost: CNY 29.597 bln
Duration: 4 years

source
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Old May 1st, 2014, 08:58 AM   #7985
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Cool. There have been many delays with the Beijing-Zhangjiakou HSR due to neighbourhoods and towns not wanting the HSR through their area. It seems this was just recently settled and thus the location of the Zhangjiakou station is known and can be built to from both ends.
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Old May 1st, 2014, 09:07 AM   #7986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
But administrative division does not necessarily mean that all farmhouses are in one cluster and the rest of the village territory is empty fields. There might be houses scattered around the territory of the village - or clustered in several groups within a single administrative village, which may be called "natural village" (zirancun).
If you lived here and were not posting only based upon from what you read online, but instead from what you have seen, then you would know exactly what those houses densities were.

A city is a city if you know it when you see it, not from quoting online figures and definitions pulled from a machine translation.
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Old May 1st, 2014, 09:07 AM   #7987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
The stats lie.
Stats can't "lie," but they can be misinterpreted, which is often the case.
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Old May 1st, 2014, 10:13 AM   #7988
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
4.29 Construction of first Inner Mongolia HSR starts

Hohhot-Zhangjiakou HSR:

Length: 286.8km (211.3km in Inner Mongolia, 75.5km in Hebei Province)
Speed: 250kmph
Bridge/Tunnel: 62% of total length
Cost: CNY 29.597 bln
Duration: 4 years
Does Zhangjiakou-Hohhot HSR go through Datong like Zhangjiakou-Hohhot LSR does?
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Old May 1st, 2014, 10:43 AM   #7989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
4.29 Construction of first Inner Mongolia HSR starts

Hohhot-Zhangjiakou HSR:

Bridge/Tunnel: 62% of total length
Those 62% would mostly be viaducts along the valleys, much like the existing roads, or will the line plough straight through the mountains?
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Old May 1st, 2014, 07:02 PM   #7990
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I have again compiled a list of average speeds along HSR lines. Data are from Wikipedia, http://train.huochepiao.com/ and http://chinatrainguide.com/.
Code:
Route                 Length        Fastest train  Time Avg speed
=================================================================
Harbin W–Dalian N        904        G48             3:30      258
Panjin–Yingkou E          89        G8087/G8086     0:27      198
Beijing S–Shanghai H    1303        G1              4:48      271
Bengbu S–Hefei           131        G260/G257       0:38      207
Beijing W–Shijiazhuang   281        G79             1:07      252
Shijiazhuang–Wuhan       838        G79             3:08      267
Wuhan–Guangzhou S        969        G79             3:39      265
Guangzhou S–Shenzhen N   102        G79             0:29      211
Hangzhou E–Ningbo        152        G7505           0:50      182
Ningbo–Wenzhou S         275        G7561           1:39      167
Wenzhou S–Fuzhou S       294        D3107           1:53      156
Fuzhou S–Xiamen N        226        D2283           1:18      174
Xiamen N–Shenzhen N      502        D2301           3:34      141
Qingdao N–Jinan          347        G1248/G1245     2:24      145
Shijiazhuang–Taiyuan     194        D2003           1:18      149
Zhengzhou–Xi’an N        455        G96/G97         1:57      233
Xi’an N–Baoji S          148        G671            1:01      146
Nanjing S–Hefei          166        D3010/D3011     1:01      163
Hefei–Hankou             350        D3090/D3091     2:22      148
Hankou–Yichang E         292        D5821           1:44      168
Yichang E–Lichuan        275        K1096/K1097     2:19      119
Lichuang–Chongqing N     264        D2261           2:27      108
Chongqing N–Suining      167        D5123           1:15      134
Suining–Chengdu          148        D5133           1:01      146
Shanghai H–Hangzhou E    159        G7505           0:45      212
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Tianjin–Qinhuangdao      261        G381            1:11      221
Qinhuangdao–Shenyang N   404        G1204/G1201     2:26      166
Nanning–Beihai           199        D8253           1:39      121
Qinzhou–Fangchenggang N   42        D8251           0:21      120
Maoming E–Zhanjiang W     93        T201            1:11       79
Longyan–Xiamen N         156        D3133/D3132     1:09      136
Xiangtang–Putian         548        D6523           3:24      161
Hengyang E –Guilin*      342        G535            2:27      140
Guilin–Liuzhou*          156        D8201           1:02      151
Nanning–Wuzhou S         328        D8271           2:28      133
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Beijing S–Tianjin        115        C2001           0:33      209
Chengdu–Dujiangyan        65        D6107           0:31      126
Shanghai–Nanjing         301        G7002           1:39      182
Nanchang W–Jiujiang      138        D6374           0:54      153
Haikou E–Sanya           284        D7309           1:34      181
Changchun–Jilin          111        G8003           0:40      167
Guangzhou S–Zhuhai       116        D7615           0:59      118
Xiaolan–Xinhui            26        D7701           0:24       65
Nanjing S–Hangzhou E     251        G588/G585       1:14      204
Liuzhou–Nanning          223        D8201           1:34      142
Wuchang–Xianning S        90        C5001           0:46      117
Interestingly, since the previous compilation, travel times have increased considerably on the Shanghai–Nanjing ICL (from 1:19 to 1:39).

I also made a map to illustrate the average speeds. Visuals are not my forte, so it doesn't look pretty!


Will there be faster trains running between Hengyang and Liuzhou or Wuhan and Chongqing in the near future?

EDIT: Although there are no direct high-speed trains between Hengyang and Liuzhou, there are services Hengyang–Guilin and Guilin–Liuzhou. Changed the table and map to reflect that.
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Last edited by Galactic; May 3rd, 2014 at 02:57 PM. Reason: Split Hengyang–Liuzhou to Hengyang–Guilin and Guilin–Liuzhou
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Old May 1st, 2014, 09:14 PM   #7991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galactic View Post
I have again compiled a list of average speeds along HSR lines. Data are from Wikipedia, http://train.huochepiao.com/ and http://chinatrainguide.com/.
Code:
Route                 Length        Fastest train  Time Avg speed
=================================================================
Harbin W–Dalian N        904        G48             3:30      258
Panjin–Yingkou E          89        G8087/G8086     0:27      198
Beijing S–Shanghai H    1303        G1              4:48      271
Bengbu S–Hefei           131        G260/G257       0:38      207
Beijing W–Shijiazhuang   281        G79             1:07      252
Shijiazhuang–Wuhan       838        G79             3:08      267
Wuhan–Guangzhou S        969        G79             3:39      265
Guangzhou S–Shenzhen N   102        G79             0:29      211
Hangzhou E–Ningbo        152        G7505           0:50      182
Ningbo–Wenzhou S         275        G7561           1:39      167
Wenzhou S–Fuzhou S       294        D3107           1:53      156
Fuzhou S–Xiamen N        226        D2283           1:18      174
Xiamen N–Shenzhen N      502        D2301           3:34      141
Qingdao N–Jinan          347        G1248/G1245     2:24      145
Shijiazhuang–Taiyuan     194        D2003           1:18      149
Zhengzhou–Xi’an N        455        G96/G97         1:57      233
Xi’an N–Baoji S          148        G671            1:01      146
Nanjing S–Hefei          166        D3010/D3011     1:01      163
Hefei–Hankou             350        D3090/D3091     2:22      148
Hankou–Yichang E         292        D5821           1:44      168
Yichang E–Lichuan        275        K1096/K1097     2:19      119
Lichuang–Chongqing N     264        D2261           2:27      108
Chongqing N–Suining      167        D5123           1:15      134
Suining–Chengdu          148        D5133           1:01      146
Shanghai H–Hangzhou E    159        G7505           0:45      212
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Tianjin–Qinhuangdao      261        G381            1:11      221
Qinhuangdao–Shenyang N   404        G1204/G1201     2:26      166
Nanning–Beihai           199        D8253           1:39      121
Qinzhou–Fangchenggang N   42        D8251           0:21      120
Maoming E–Zhanjiang W     93        T201            1:11       79
Longyan–Xiamen N         156        D3133/D3132     1:09      136
Xiangtang–Putian         548        D6523           3:24      161
Hengyang–Liuzhou         498        T5              5:46       86
Nanning–Wuzhou S         328        D8271           2:28      133
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Beijing S–Tianjin        115        C2001           0:33      209
Chengdu–Dujiangyan        65        D6107           0:31      126
Shanghai–Nanjing         301        G7002           1:39      182
Nanchang W–Jiujiang      138        D6374           0:54      153
Haikou E–Sanya           284        D7309           1:34      181
Changchun–Jilin          111        G8003           0:40      167
Guangzhou S–Zhuhai       116        D7615           0:59      118
Xiaolan–Xinhui            26        D7701           0:24       65
Nanjing S–Hangzhou E     251        G588/G585       1:14      204
Liuzhou–Nanning          223        D8201           1:34      142
Wuchang–Xianning S        90        C5001           0:46      117
Interestingly, since the previous compilation, travel times have increased considerably on the Shanghai–Nanjing ICL (from 1:19 to 1:39).

I also made a map to illustrate the average speeds. Visuals are not my forte, so it doesn't look pretty!


Will there be faster trains running between Hengyang and Liuzhou or Wuhan and Chongqing in the near future?
I love this, great job!
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Old May 1st, 2014, 09:56 PM   #7992
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galactic View Post
I have again compiled a list of average speeds along HSR lines.
Thanks for good job... though I would not waste page area and data volume to quote all pictures only to praise them!

Trying to put in some my work, too:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galactic View Post
I am using http://travelchinaguide.com/ instead.


Code:
Origin             HSR Length       Fastest train  Time  2nd class price 
=================================================================
Wuzhou         328        D8278             2:28              96  
Tengxian        303        D8278             2:13             89
Pingnan          244        D8278             1:48            71,5
Guiping           209        D8278             1:30            61,5
Guigang          151        D8278             1:04            44
The stations between Wuzhou and Guigang are not on any low speed railway. Guigang has LSR, 174 km to Nanning, fastest slow reain 2:15. Hard seat price 28 yuan 5 jiao, so HSR is only costs extra 15 yuan 5 jiao and saves at least over a hour and over half the travel time. From Wuzhou, the LSR is 442 km long, fastest train (T289) takes 6:11 and costs 63 yuan 5 jiao. So HSR halves the trip time at only about 50 % higher price, and often LSR does not exist in the first place.

Teng is a county, in Wuzhou city, 930 000 people in 3943 square km. 15 towns and 1 township, of which Tengzhou is county town.
Pingnan is a county in Guigang, area 1502 square km, population 350 000.
Guiping is a county level city in Guigang city. Area 4074 square km, population 1 700 000. Despite being a city, contains no subdistricts, only 21 towns and 5 townships, of which Mule town is a seat of... what?
Guigang is a prefecture level city. Area 10 595 square km, population 4,4 millions. Contains Pingnan county, Guiping county level city and 3 districts (Gangbei, Gangnan and Qintang).

PS: the code does not appear to work for me - cannot see what actually made the table align properly.

Last edited by chornedsnorkack; May 3rd, 2014 at 12:51 AM.
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Old May 2nd, 2014, 07:45 AM   #7993
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galactic View Post
I have again compiled a list of average speeds along HSR lines. ...
Excellent,, Have you tried to list ALL crh services (end to end), if so, there is direct service from Guilin to Beihai - D8253 - 4h44m
I hope one day to make a map of direct crh services, to make it easy to see from where to where we can take crh train without changing
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Old May 3rd, 2014, 12:28 AM   #7994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockAss View Post
Excellent,, Have you tried to list ALL crh services (end to end), if so, there is direct service from Guilin to Beihai - D8253 - 4h44m
I hope one day to make a map of direct crh services, to make it easy to see from where to where we can take crh train without changing
Rather than making a list of services, my goal was more line-oriented; that is, to illustrate how the different railways are exploited. There are lines where operating speeds are something other than what the maximum speed would suggest: maximum speeds for Suining–Chengdu and Maoming–Zhanjiang are both 200 km/h, but the actual service is very different.

Your example did make me realize that my approach of using only the endpoints of railway( project)s can be misleading, as there is a section of the Hengyang–Liuzhou railway with faster train service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
PS: the code does not appear to work for me - cannot see what actually made the table align properly.
I didn't do anything fancy, I just used spaces to create fixed-width columns (different amounts of spaces after words of different lengths).
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Last edited by Galactic; May 3rd, 2014 at 12:34 AM.
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Old May 3rd, 2014, 12:02 PM   #7995
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The nominal division of the line is, for some reason, at Liuzhou; actually no high speed trains get through Guilin for some reason.

Code:
Route                 Length        Fastest train  Time Avg speed
=================================================================
Hengyang–Liuzhou         498        T5              5:46       86
Liuzhou–Nanning          223        D8201           1:34      142
...
Hengyang-Guilin           342       G535             2:27      140
Guilin-Nanning              379       D8255           2:39      143
On one to one basis, seeing which lines link:

Code:
Route                 Length        Fastest train  Time Avg speed
=================================================================
Harbin W–Dalian N        904        G48             3:30      258
Panjin–Yingkou E          89        G8087/G8086     0:27      198
Qinhuangdao–Shenyang N   404        G1204/G1201     2:26      166
Changchun–Jilin          111        G8003           0:40      167
...
Panjin-Dalian N           295       G391              1:26      206
Harbin W-Qinhuangdao 943      G382               4:50      195
Harbin W-Jilin              351     G406                1:49      193
Dalian N-Jilin               804     G8011               3:57      204
Dalian N-Qinhuangdao   575    G389                 3:08      184
Qinhuangdao-Jilin         826    G383                 4:46      173
The problem is that columns that align in edit box do not align when posted.
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Old May 3rd, 2014, 03:04 PM   #7996
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
The nominal division of the line is, for some reason, at Liuzhou; actually no high speed trains get through Guilin for some reason.
Thanks, I edited my post to show that there actually is high-speed service between Hengyang and Liuzhou, just not direct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
On one to one basis, seeing which lines link:
Those examples are the opposite: instead of splitting a line, you've combined them. If you take a train that runs on both 250 km/h and 300 km/h lines, it's likely to have a higher average speed than one that only runs on 250 km/h lines. Also, on a longer route there is proportionately less time spent running at a lower speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
The problem is that columns that align in edit box do not align when posted.
The edit box has a regular font, while the code is formatted with a fixed-width one. Your best bet is to do the editing in a text editor using a fixed-width font and then paste it to the message editor. You can also use a spreadsheet program and export the table to a fixed-width file.
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Old May 5th, 2014, 02:45 AM   #7997
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galactic View Post
Interestingly, since the previous compilation, travel times have increased considerably on the Shanghai–Nanjing ICL (from 1:19 to 1:39).
Interesting, when I rode it the last time (Feb 2014) it was still 1:19. Did they add a stop or something?
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Old May 5th, 2014, 06:44 AM   #7998
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Interesting, when I rode it the last time (Feb 2014) it was still 1:19. Did they add a stop or something?
yes,they add more stops.but the shortest time from Nanjing to shanghai is 1h14m
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Old May 6th, 2014, 09:09 PM   #7999
Galactic
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Originally Posted by flankerjun View Post
yes,they add more stops.but the shortest time from Nanjing to shanghai is 1h14m
Yes, but I was referring to trains that run on the intercity line. 1:14 is on the Beijing–Shanghai line, right?
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Old May 11th, 2014, 01:16 PM   #8000
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some news
New 380KM/H bullet train for cold weather from CSR will come out few months later,now only CNR have this kind of trains.there are also bullet trains with new Permanent magnet motors,they can save more engergy,trains that made with Chinese standard,such as unified Interior,same Cockpit and Operating method,if a driver can drive a kind of trains in China then they can drive any other trains in China.and new trains for Exporting.
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