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Old June 2nd, 2014, 04:41 PM   #8101
chornedsnorkack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mavis_dark View Post
Yes, but look at the map. Japan's geography is very different and challenging.
And most of the countries you mentioned are geographically bigger than Japan.
Most are, but Italy is not.
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Old June 2nd, 2014, 11:34 PM   #8102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mavis_dark View Post
I wasn't comparing, just explaining that he misunderstood what he was responding to.
No one was comparing actually, so you are the one being absurd here.
I wasn't even talking to you.

Saying "Yes, but China also has less railways on area basis than Japan." has given comparison meaning in it. And, yeah, it is absurd.

Funny thing is, in your next post you responded a similar comparison. lol
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Old June 3rd, 2014, 10:25 AM   #8103
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China is also almost as big as Europe, and more populous.
What do you think WOULD be a proper comparison?
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Old June 3rd, 2014, 03:53 PM   #8104
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Take Europe and double it.

Europe pop 700 mil

China pop 1400 mil
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Old June 3rd, 2014, 05:25 PM   #8105
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China shrugs off security concerns on new link to restless west
3 June 2014

TURPAN China (Reuters) - China showed off its first high-speed rail link to the restive far western region of Xinjiang on Tuesday, promising that it could guarantee the security of an important economic project despite a recent serious escalation in violence.

Officials are still testing the line, which will run from the central western city of Lanzhou to Xinjiang's capital Urumqi, drastically reducing travel times to the energy-rich region located strategically on the borders of Central Asia.

If tests go to plan, Xinjiang's first high-speed rail could be open to passengers within a year, officials told reporters on a government-organized tour of the train.

Li Suping, the Urumqi Railway public security bureau vice chief, said that ensuring security over the line was a challenge police could handle, even as the government says it faces a growing threat from Islamist militants.

"We have confidence and the ability to guarantee the security of our lines and the security of our passengers. We adopted measures at stations and on the lines. We believe these measures are effective and are suited to the reality facing us," Li told reporters as the train cut through rugged, high-wind desert terrain east of Urumqi on the way to the oasis city of Turpan.

Xinjiang has been beset by violence for years, which has pitted members of the Muslim Uighur people who call Xinjiang home against the Han Chinese who make up the majority of China's population.

Many Uighurs, who speak a Turkic-language, chafe at Chinese government controls on their culture and religion and complain at being left out of Xinjiang's development, though Beijing says they are granted wide-ranging freedoms and that it is generous in supporting the region's minority peoples.

Last month, five suicide bombers hit an Urumqi market, killing 39 people in the deadliest attack ever in Xinjiang. A few weeks earlier, a bomb went off at an Urumqi railway station, killing one person and wounding 79.

As well as massively stepping up security, China has been pouring money into Xinjiang's development in an implicit recognition of the economic causes of some of the unrest, and the new rail line is part of that strategy.

Vice Xinjiang governor Aierken Tuniyazi said the rail link would reduce the current 40-hour train ride from Beijing by more than 10 hours.

"The construction and operation of this rail line will greatly ... benefit the further opening of the west and will provide a firm foundation for the establishment of the Silk Road economic belt," he said, referring to Beijing's plans to better integrate development with Central Asia.

However, he avoided a question about whether the new train would only speed the arrival of Han migrants into Xinjiang, another cause of Uighur discontent.

Portions of the 710-km Xinjiang stretch of the track run through wide-open and easily accessible grazing lands or desert, making protection of the line a daunting challenge for authorities that have struggled to get a handle on the spate of attacks over the past year or more.

"It's a challenge for us, but we feel that through our effective measures we can absolutely handle and respond to these challenges," security official Li said.

All trains have armed personnel on board, the numbers - often two or three - depending on the length of the line and the number of passengers, he added.

Li said there would be no delay in opening the line due to security concerns.

"Once construction is complete ... on the security aspect, there is no problem," he added. "If there was any impact (from the recent attacks), it's that we are now even more cautious."
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Old June 4th, 2014, 09:51 AM   #8106
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Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR,June 3rd,2014

Test run began in Xinjiang section.
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[IMG]http://i60.************/11b672u.jpg[/IMG]
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[IMG]http://i58.************/2poac01.jpg[/IMG]
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[IMG]http://i59.************/1z3qu15.jpg[/IMG]
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[IMG]http://i59.************/ir3mn8.jpg[/IMG]

From chinanews.com
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Old June 4th, 2014, 11:40 AM   #8107
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The first uighur Crew and the first uighur bullet train driver

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Old June 4th, 2014, 12:31 PM   #8108
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Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR,June 3rd,2014

There's about 462 kilometers of route is installed with the windbreak facilities to protect the trains in the strong wind regions.
1.

2.

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4.


From cnr.cn
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Old June 4th, 2014, 07:37 PM   #8109
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I thought the line was designed for 300-350 km/h speed, so why they use CRH2 trains, having in mind that line is not connected to the rest of the network it means they shipped those trains there and planing to use them for regular services, or are they going to run them on conventional lines down east of Lanzhou?
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Old June 4th, 2014, 07:45 PM   #8110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
China is also almost as big as Europe, and more populous.
What do you think WOULD be a proper comparison?
The least that can be done is pointing out that half of the China is basically empty whereas Europe is fairly populated in all of its area.

It is not an easy thing to do comparison of the whole system based on a single variable. For example in case of rail length, two cities can be connected by regular rail or high speed rail. High speed rail obvious advantages we all know compared to regular one, chiefly higher speed and as a consequences higher capacity. Electrification of the lines can be another example. Weight/load capacity of the lines another, other built standards such as vertical and horizontal curve radius etc...

The point is, you cannot say China has double the population or area so it should have double the rail length of that of Europe.
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Old June 4th, 2014, 07:47 PM   #8111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockAss View Post
I thought the line was designed for 300-350 km/h speed, so why they use CRH2 trains, having in mind that line is not connected to the rest of the network it means they shipped those trains there and planing to use them for regular services, or are they going to run them on conventional lines down east of Lanzhou?


Those are not vanilla CRH2, they are CRH2C which are capable of 350km/h.
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Old June 4th, 2014, 07:59 PM   #8112
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According to Xinhua:
Quote:
A CRH2-061C high-speed train ran through the 300-km Urumqi-Shanshan section at speeds of 160 km to 277 km per hour. The designed speed is 250 km per hour, but the train must slow down when passing through windy areas.
Can somebody confirm that this is true/untrue? Some sources say it's 350km/h, others 300km/h and now we see 250km/h.

Could it be that originally it was planned as 350km/h but later for some reason decided to make it 300km/h while the actual operating speed will be 250km/h?
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Old June 4th, 2014, 08:39 PM   #8113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
The least that can be done is pointing out that half of the China is basically empty whereas Europe is fairly populated in all of its area.

It is not an easy thing to do comparison of the whole system based on a single variable. For example in case of rail length, two cities can be connected by regular rail or high speed rail. High speed rail obvious advantages we all know compared to regular one, chiefly higher speed and as a consequences higher capacity. Electrification of the lines can be another example. Weight/load capacity of the lines another, other built standards such as vertical and horizontal curve radius etc...

The point is, you cannot say China has double the population or area so it should have double the rail length of that of Europe.
You can take the densely populated core provinces of China, which from memory comes to about 1100million and around 3million km2. So that is kindof equivalent to 2 Europes.

Then add the outlying provinces which aren't as densely populated.

It's in one of my old posts somewhere.
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Old June 4th, 2014, 09:00 PM   #8114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
High speed rail obvious advantages we all know compared to regular one, chiefly higher speed and as a consequences higher capacity.
Capacity has nothing to do with speed. Usually a subway line has bigger passenger capacity than highspeed railway.
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Old June 4th, 2014, 09:07 PM   #8115
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I should point out some information:
During the period of planning this line,some officials considered 200 or 250 at first,but former minister Liuzhijun make a big decision,350KM/H, curve radius 7000m,and finally this line began construction at 350KM/H.
after the 7.23 accident in 2011,,many lines had been adjusted from 350km/h to 250km/h,all of them are in west China,and this is one of these lines.
the bridges and tunnels and most important the curve radius are still in 350KM/H standard.
but there is also a big spec is that the Track Ultra-high,



we all know that the track actually is declining in the turns,this design makes the Gravity produce a force pointing to the inside of the curve,to provide the Centripetal force,and if the Track Ultra-high is not enough ,the train can not run at 350KM/H,and the design for Track Ultra-high is to meet the condition at 250KM/H,so this is a 250KM/H line.
and also there will many normal trains to run at this line,several month ago the railway corporation bought about 1700 25T cars and 651 locos that runs at 160KM/H.the normal train at old lines will decrease.
I do not know how to evaluate this design,in fact this line is quite cheaper compared to the lines in the east,and the change of design from 350KM/H to 250KM/H do not save any money,and in Chinese forum,there are all the anger,and the big slope in this line makes the locos cross the slope quite a hard job,After all it is a 3% slop.
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Old June 4th, 2014, 09:16 PM   #8116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
Capacity has nothing to do with speed. Usually a subway line has bigger passenger capacity than highspeed railway.
Speed and Capacity are Closely related,higher speed means higher Frequency of trains,and more important is the Efficiency of train.
AT a 1000 KM line,if you only have a train and run at 350KM/H,and 18 hours a day,there will 3 pairs of trains,but if you run 200KM/H,3 pairs means you need more trains.
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Old June 4th, 2014, 10:50 PM   #8117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
Capacity has nothing to do with speed. Usually a subway line has bigger passenger capacity than highspeed railway.
Dude, speed is an integral part of capacity calculations.
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Old June 4th, 2014, 11:45 PM   #8118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flankerjun View Post
Speed and Capacity are Closely related,higher speed means higher Frequency of trains,and more important is the Efficiency of train.
AT a 1000 KM line,if you only have a train and run at 350KM/H,and 18 hours a day,there will 3 pairs of trains,but if you run 200KM/H,3 pairs means you need more trains.
Yes - you need more trains. But so what?

If you are, say, limited to 6 minute headways on your high speed railway then you can only have 10 trains per hour. Of course, you may not have these trains. But if you have, say, 1000 km line (like Beijing-Nanjing) and you have 30 trains then you are serving the 10 trains per hour and you have no space on the railway for any additional trains. Whereas, if you could shorten headways to 4 minutes if the speed were 250 km/h, then you could have 15 trains per hour. Sure, youŽd need 60 trains to do so; but you can use all these 60 and still get 15 trains per hour, so more passengers than at the 350 km/h speed.
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Old June 4th, 2014, 11:49 PM   #8119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
The least that can be done is pointing out that half of the China is basically empty whereas Europe is fairly populated in all of its area.
Not that it matters, but Europe has some very thinly inhabited areas. Norther Scandinavia and Northern Russia most obviously.
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Old June 5th, 2014, 04:54 AM   #8120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Yes - you need more trains. But so what?

If you are, say, limited to 6 minute headways on your high speed railway then you can only have 10 trains per hour. Of course, you may not have these trains. But if you have, say, 1000 km line (like Beijing-Nanjing) and you have 30 trains then you are serving the 10 trains per hour and you have no space on the railway for any additional trains. Whereas, if you could shorten headways to 4 minutes if the speed were 250 km/h, then you could have 15 trains per hour. Sure, youŽd need 60 trains to do so; but you can use all these 60 and still get 15 trains per hour, so more passengers than at the 350 km/h speed.
You and keber do not know what exactly railroad capacity means. It means "...maximum number of trains that would be able to operate on a given railway infrastructure, during a specific time interval, given the operational conditions."

Let's say you have a 10km rail line. If you had a single train just sitting in the middle of the line it would have been using the whole capacity. If train is running at 10km/h it will take it 1 hour to "use" that stretch. If it is running at 100km/h it will take 6 minutes so you can have 9 more trains.

Something like this:

Quote:
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