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Old June 13th, 2014, 03:42 AM   #8201
Highcliff
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hey, everyone
china proposes a tunnel for high speed rail under the bohai strait

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%BA...reito_de_Bohai
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Old June 13th, 2014, 03:44 AM   #8202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VECTROTALENZIS View Post
To be honest China is sometimes shockingly backwards and underdeveloped outside of Yangtze River Delta, Beijing, Pearls River Delta. It's really like two different world's comparing Yangtze River Delta to the inland. I lived in China and traveled through the country so I know what I'm talking about.
You all continue to miss the salient point.

One can have shiny new freeways and tollways as was posted in a link, but what you are assuming is that if the infrastructure is modern and looks like that of a developed country, that travel times will be similar.

They will not.

There are many behavioural and culture factors that will affect travel times, so that instead of driving.1200 kms in one day as one can in North America, in China on limited access roadways with the same technology level one will be able to drive only 400 kms in one day.

This is necessary to accurately calculate travel times.

If one were to attempt to drive from Shanghai to Kunming, and the entire route has Autobahn like 4-lane modern roadways, one would need to assume that after 400kms you would be stopping to get a hotel room. It does not matter that the left hand lane is rated to 120kph, you won't be traveling at that speed.

Using any online mapping and trip calculators will tell you a flat out lie and delusional trip time for long distance driving trips in China. Any time will need to be doubled to get close to the reality of how long it will take.

I have done this and Chinese drivers simply do not behave as you assume.

Only flying and CRH and subways will get you about quickly. The instant you leave those networks and get onto anything with wheels, average speed can plummet to 30kph.

Last edited by China Hand; June 13th, 2014 at 03:50 AM.
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Old June 13th, 2014, 04:57 AM   #8203
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Which city/town/village do you have to travel to for such a journey?

It should be fair to assume that travel between major cities is most important at this stage. If you want to get to some unknown village or small city the cheapest way possible, then I guess you'll have to contend with longer travel times by a bus.
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Old June 13th, 2014, 06:10 AM   #8204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
You all continue to miss the salient point.

One can have shiny new freeways and tollways as was posted in a link, but what you are assuming is that if the infrastructure is modern and looks like that of a developed country, that travel times will be similar.

They will not.

There are many behavioural and culture factors that will affect travel times, so that instead of driving.1200 kms in one day as one can in North America, in China on limited access roadways with the same technology level one will be able to drive only 400 kms in one day.

This is necessary to accurately calculate travel times.

If one were to attempt to drive from Shanghai to Kunming, and the entire route has Autobahn like 4-lane modern roadways, one would need to assume that after 400kms you would be stopping to get a hotel room. It does not matter that the left hand lane is rated to 120kph, you won't be traveling at that speed.

Using any online mapping and trip calculators will tell you a flat out lie and delusional trip time for long distance driving trips in China. Any time will need to be doubled to get close to the reality of how long it will take.

I have done this and Chinese drivers simply do not behave as you assume.

Only flying and CRH and subways will get you about quickly. The instant you leave those networks and get onto anything with wheels, average speed can plummet to 30kph.
By this post you lost whatever left from your credibility in my eyes. First, it was infrastructure now it is cultural and behavioral stuff...

Did you ever try to drive around New York or LA or San Fran...? You will experience similar traffic jams. Moscow, Istanbul, London.. every large city is the same. Google says for New York to Boston 3h40min, it sometimes takes more 2 hours to get out of the city! Pretty much same story...

And, China has the high speed rail so you can zoom around the country. And when there is no traffic jam (i.e out of metropolitan areas), since there is highways, you can drive with relative comfort, too. You are talking like all those highways do not exist.
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Old June 13th, 2014, 06:12 AM   #8205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
You all continue to miss the salient point.

One can have shiny new freeways and tollways as was posted in a link, but what you are assuming is that if the infrastructure is modern and looks like that of a developed country, that travel times will be similar.

They will not.

There are many behavioural and culture factors that will affect travel times, so that instead of driving.1200 kms in one day as one can in North America, in China on limited access roadways with the same technology level one will be able to drive only 400 kms in one day.

This is necessary to accurately calculate travel times.

If one were to attempt to drive from Shanghai to Kunming, and the entire route has Autobahn like 4-lane modern roadways, one would need to assume that after 400kms you would be stopping to get a hotel room. It does not matter that the left hand lane is rated to 120kph, you won't be traveling at that speed.

Using any online mapping and trip calculators will tell you a flat out lie and delusional trip time for long distance driving trips in China. Any time will need to be doubled to get close to the reality of how long it will take.

I have done this and Chinese drivers simply do not behave as you assume.

Only flying and CRH and subways will get you about quickly. The instant you leave those networks and get onto anything with wheels, average speed can plummet to 30kph.
I don't understand how behavioral factors more than halve the speeds achieved on an expressway. When I visit China for relatives the expressway speeds in the countryside seem more in line with America.
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Old June 14th, 2014, 02:01 AM   #8206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
I don't understand how behavioral factors more than halve the speeds achieved on an expressway. When I visit China for relatives the expressway speeds in the countryside seem more in line with America.
It is true that average speeds on an expressway/motorway in most European countries (primarily Germany) may be considerably higher than in China. After all lane discipline in China is virtually nonexistent (as opposed to Europe). However US is not much different in this respect. Therefore I would not be surprised that average speeds on US interstates aren't much higher than they are on China's expressways.

Lane discipline IS a good thing though.
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Old June 14th, 2014, 07:53 AM   #8207
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To some extent it applies even to us first tier people in first tier cities. The whole infrastructure package has to work if the intent is to zip effortlessly from A to B.

The HSR time from Beijing to Tianjin is 30 minutes. Currently I live very conveniently to the South station, but I still have to estimate one hour (40 minutes with metro, 15-60 minutes with taxi depending on traffic, plus walking time in station and gates closing). Next year I'll have moved and the estimated travelling time is two hours. Then add whatever time I'd need in Tianjin. HSR still beats slow but direct buses, if not by much.

If you have an HSR ticket into Beijing, and another one out of it, you would most likely have to transfer stations. Then you'd have to set off at least one hour transfer time, and better not have much luggage, because the transfer will not be comfortable.
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Old June 14th, 2014, 12:00 PM   #8208
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That above trip today, 100 minutes 51 kms. 30kph. One segment he was at 17 kph for 15 minutes. This has nothing to do with the road - other vehicles drive past quickly.

This is cultural and behavioural.

I estimate that once anyone travels more than 10 kms away from a HSR line that travel velocities will drop to ~30kph. In fact we drive under an HSR line at these velocities.

I suppose the trick would be to never venture beyond those areas.
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Old June 14th, 2014, 12:45 PM   #8209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
To some extent it applies even to us first tier people in first tier cities. The whole infrastructure package has to work if the intent is to zip effortlessly from A to B.

The HSR time from Beijing to Tianjin is 30 minutes. Currently I live very conveniently to the South station, but I still have to estimate one hour (40 minutes with metro, 15-60 minutes with taxi depending on traffic, plus walking time in station and gates closing). Next year I'll have moved and the estimated travelling time is two hours. Then add whatever time I'd need in Tianjin. HSR still beats slow but direct buses, if not by much.

If you have an HSR ticket into Beijing, and another one out of it, you would most likely have to transfer stations. Then you'd have to set off at least one hour transfer time, and better not have much luggage, because the transfer will not be comfortable.
That is the exact problem that occurs when you treat HSR stations like small domestic airports, out of the city. The city may well grow around the stations, but there will still be the 90% who have to spend an hour or more on public tranport - losing the benefit of ease of use.
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Old June 14th, 2014, 01:36 PM   #8210
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yes for now. But Chinese cities are far from settled as of now. Almost all of them are under turbulence of rebuild or people movement. Given 10 years 30% may have lived closer to new stations and new settlement is accelerating when more facilities are being built up.

I was taking HSR to visit parents on Thursday. My parents have moved to new apartment near the station. The reason is simple, cheaper housing, better environment, not much traffic, close to work (government are moving to new areas too).

So traditional reasoning may not apply to a fast changing scenario, esp for Tier II/III mainland cities.
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Old June 14th, 2014, 01:58 PM   #8211
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Is there really a place in Beijing (for example) which could be accessed by >90% of inhabitants with public transport in less than an hour? I'm not familiar with the city, but my guess would be no.
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Old June 14th, 2014, 04:55 PM   #8212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
yes for now. But Chinese cities are far from settled as of now. Almost all of them are under turbulence of rebuild or people movement. Given 10 years 30% may have lived closer to new stations and new settlement is accelerating when more facilities are being built up.

I was taking HSR to visit parents on Thursday. My parents have moved to new apartment near the station. The reason is simple, cheaper housing, better environment, not much traffic, close to work (government are moving to new areas too).

So traditional reasoning may not apply to a fast changing scenario, esp for Tier II/III mainland cities.

Well yes and no, a cursory glance at the latest Google Earth imagery (all 2013/2014) shows little to no development around Wuhan, Changsha, Shaoguan and Hengyang. Absolutely no development around Leiyang station was seen.
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Old June 14th, 2014, 06:03 PM   #8213
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Quote:
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The HSR time from Beijing to Tianjin is 30 minutes. Currently I live very conveniently to the South station, but I still have to estimate one hour (40 minutes with metro, 15-60 minutes with taxi depending on traffic, plus walking time in station and gates closing).
The time it took me to walk from the metro exit to the platform for the bullet train in Tokyo station was 20 minutes. It was a 400m walk with luggage and this was the SAME station.
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Old June 14th, 2014, 08:51 PM   #8214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
That is the exact problem that occurs when you treat HSR stations like small domestic airports, out of the city. The city may well grow around the stations, but there will still be the 90% who have to spend an hour or more on public tranport - losing the benefit of ease of use.

They are more like big international airports
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Old June 15th, 2014, 04:25 AM   #8215
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Beijing South























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Old June 15th, 2014, 08:02 AM   #8216
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Beijing South



Ah, if I had known about these pictures a week ago, I would have saved myself some trouble. I had seen somebody off at the South station and was going down the escalator to the metro when I saw these huge posters and decided to take pictures of them. However they had redesigned this mezzanine into kind of a demilitarised zone, so when I took the escalator back up I had to go through the security to the trains and as so happens I was carrying a rather large pair of scissors. When discovered I was able to explain I was actually going to the metro, and if I were a lunatic scissor killer that would be the metro's problem, not theirs.

There was a third poster on display IIRC, I could post it if any interest.

Incidentally the blue lines in the bottom picture is the coming 14 line station (as labelled), to be opened next year and relieving the 4 line (the red lines).

Last edited by :jax:; June 15th, 2014 at 10:37 AM. Reason: red-blue colour blind
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Old June 15th, 2014, 09:51 AM   #8217
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Mixed the two up.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 10:37 AM   #8218
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Yes, sorry. Fixed now.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 03:22 PM   #8219
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The time it took me to walk from the metro exit to the platform for the bullet train in Tokyo station was 20 minutes. It was a 400m walk with luggage and this was the SAME station.
And yet people here bring Japanese HSR stations as examples of compactness for China.

Every train arriving in Tokyo by Tokaido Shinkansen, even the express Nozomi trains, makes 3 stops: Shin-Yokohama (25,5 km from Tokyo), Shinagawa (6,8 km from Tokyo) and Tokyo.

And Shinagawa and Tokyo are both old, slow speed railway stations. The whole 7 km viaduct from Shinagawa to Tokyo has both high speed railway and very dense slow speed railway service including Yamanote Line, which makes 4 stops on these 6,8 km (Tamamachi, Hamamatsucho, Shimbashi, Yurakucho).
On the northern suburbs, Tohoku, Joetsu and Nagano Shinkansen share a 31,3 km section also with 3 stations (Tokyo, Ueno 3,6 km away, Omiya), also with many other lines - Yamanote line stations on these 3,6 km are Kanda, Akihabara, Okachimachi.

A distance of about 4 km is on the railway from Shanghai West to Shanghai station. Should the long distance HSR trains be made to stop at Shanghai West and Shanghai stations, not Hongqiao, and should they share the corridor with commuter trains having several stations between Shanghai and Shanghai West?
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Old June 15th, 2014, 07:42 PM   #8220
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Nice new station, I like the general design of most of these.

This one is on the small side, however. Well, for China it is...
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