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Old June 15th, 2014, 07:54 PM   #8221
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A distance of about 4 km is on the railway from Shanghai West to Shanghai station. Should the long distance HSR trains be made to stop at Shanghai West and Shanghai stations, not Hongqiao, and should they share the corridor with commuter trains having several stations between Shanghai and Shanghai West?
I don't have a local knowledge to judge with any certainty, but indeed it might be better. It's not out of stupidity that Japanese are doing it like that...
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Old June 15th, 2014, 08:27 PM   #8222
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It's mostly a question of money and time. 50-60 km tunnels below mountains or sea have been built elsewhere and most likely could be built here as well.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 09:36 PM   #8223
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they are two different kind of railway,in China,JP railway is more like a commuter rail,most are short distance passengers,in China,the station is more like a airport,and actually they are quite convenient than airport.

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Old June 15th, 2014, 10:01 PM   #8224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
A distance of about 4 km is on the railway from Shanghai West to Shanghai station. Should the long distance HSR trains be made to stop at Shanghai West and Shanghai stations, not Hongqiao, and should they share the corridor with commuter trains having several stations between Shanghai and Shanghai West?
It will happen eventually, many ICLs are bring constructed and planned following PDLs with more stops.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 10:30 PM   #8225
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It will happen eventually, many ICLs are bring constructed and planned following PDLs with more stops.
Yes, but it is planned. Have any such PDL/multistop line combinations been completed and opened?

And you speak of ICLs "bring constructed". China has the old railway lines and their stations. How many PDL-s follow existing railway lines with multiple stations?
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Old June 16th, 2014, 12:12 AM   #8226
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yes for now. But Chinese cities are far from settled as of now. Almost all of them are under turbulence of rebuild or people movement. Given 10 years 30% may have lived closer to new stations and new settlement is accelerating when more facilities are being built up.

I was taking HSR to visit parents on Thursday. My parents have moved to new apartment near the station. The reason is simple, cheaper housing, better environment, not much traffic, close to work (government are moving to new areas too).

So traditional reasoning may not apply to a fast changing scenario, esp for Tier II/III mainland cities.
It probably would work out for most, or at least many, of the stations. However there were a similar rail growth in Europe a century ago, like China now combined with rapid urbanisation (and for late 19th century Europe, population growth).

Outside Stockholm, Sweden, there is a town called Södertälje. It was important enough to get rail early on, but the town wasn't well situated for long-distance train, so they built a station outside town (and 20 years ago replaced it with another station even further out for HSR). The assumption was that the new station would be such an attraction that it would move people towards the new station. It hasn't. There is important industry there, mind you, but people stayed near the town station, proximity to the rest of Sweden was of lesser importance. If a citizen of Södertälje want to travel long distance he would have to take a rather long bus ride.

Hongqiao is not quite in the same situation, Shanghai is encroaching on Hongqiao in a way Stockholm isn't yet with Södertälje. Personally, I have found Hongqiao to be more convenient than a more central location the last couple times in Shanghai, but I don't think I am typical. Most Shanghaiers wouldn't think so. The station is also integrated with the airport, which is great, but an airport is a repellent as well as an attraction.

Likewise, there will be developments around all the other big city stations, but I suspect with smaller stations there will be many Chinese Södertälje in the century to come.
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Old June 16th, 2014, 04:11 AM   #8227
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that's a good point. The difference here is that new HSR stations are not that far from the cities and China's urbanization is fierce given the huge population. In my hometown of Cangzhou wherever a new developing area other business/residential will follow quickly.

The development near the HSR stations is pretty good from what I see (along Beijing-Shanghai HSR corridor). I haven't been to Wuhan-Guangzhou HSR corridor but I assume it'll flourish as well since that's also densely populated area.
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Old June 16th, 2014, 07:01 AM   #8228
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IOutside Stockholm, Sweden, there is a town called Södertälje. It was important enough to get rail early on, but the town wasn't well situated for long-distance train, so they built a station outside town (and 20 years ago replaced it with another station even further out for HSR). The assumption was that the new station would be such an attraction that it would move people towards the new station. It hasn't. There is important industry there, mind you, but people stayed near the town station, proximity to the rest of Sweden was of lesser importance. If a citizen of Södertälje want to travel long distance he would have to take a rather long bus ride.
The government will raize people's homes and force them to live near the new rail station. This is not hypothetical, it is real and happens today.
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Old June 16th, 2014, 07:50 AM   #8229
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you must be kidding right?
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Old June 16th, 2014, 09:38 AM   #8230
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that's a good point. The difference here is that new HSR stations are not that far from the cities and China's urbanization is fierce given the huge population. In my hometown of Cangzhou wherever a new developing area other business/residential will follow quickly.

The development near the HSR stations is pretty good from what I see (along Beijing-Shanghai HSR corridor).
Is there any railway between Cangzhou West and Cangzhou station?

A large majority of Shinkansen stations is shared by some, and often several, old slow speed railways. AND they make many stops.

Shinagawa Station is one of the oldest stations in Japan (June 1872). On Tokaido Shinkansen, there is no station for 19 km through suburbs to Shin-Yokohama.
But Shinagawa Station is also on Yamanote Line loop, 35 km long and with 29 stations all around central Tokyo since 1925. And it also is on Keihin-Tohoku line - 8 stations in southern suburbs between Shinagawa and Yokohama 22 km away. And it also is on Keikyu Main Line - 22 stations in these suburbs in 22,2 km between Shinagawa and Yokohama.

If a HSR station is only served by long distance, expensive trains then people will not bother to move to live and work near the HSR station. They rarely undertake long and expensive trips, and when they do, they take the time to travel to station.

But if a HSR station is also a crossroads of commuter railways then it is at all times convenient to live or work nearby.
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Old June 16th, 2014, 09:47 AM   #8231
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don't forget the new expressways and bus stations, which carries more traffic than rail. Most HSR stations are accompanied with long/short distance bus stations.
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Old June 17th, 2014, 08:08 PM   #8232
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you must be kidding right?
No, not kidding.
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Old June 18th, 2014, 05:06 AM   #8233
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No, not kidding.
then show us one such project. mind you the key word here is 'force'.
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Old June 19th, 2014, 01:28 PM   #8234
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On 1st of July, Beijing-Xiamen direct high speed train shall start. On the direction to Xiamen, its number shall be G165, it takes 12:45 and the price for the 2229 km trip is 829 yuan 5 jiao in second class, 1284 yuan first class, 2581 yuan 5 jiao business class.
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Old June 19th, 2014, 08:03 PM   #8235
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What major cities will this train go through? I'm guessing it will use the Hefei-Fuzhou high speed railway?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hefei%E...-Speed_Railway

I'm surprised at the G classification since that railway is only 250 km/h. I'm continually confused by what constitutes a G vs. D speed train.
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Old June 19th, 2014, 08:24 PM   #8236
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What major cities will this train go through? I'm guessing it will use the Hefei-Fuzhou high speed railway?
No, it does not. It shall use Beijing-Shanghai and Nanjing-Hangzhou high speed railways.

It will go through some major cities, like Cangzhou, and stop in 23 stations between Beijing and Xiamen.

On the opposite direction, G166 shall take 12:42 with likewise 23 intermediate stops, but different ones.
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Old June 19th, 2014, 09:14 PM   #8237
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You all continue to miss the salient point.

One can have shiny new freeways and tollways as was posted in a link, but what you are assuming is that if the infrastructure is modern and looks like that of a developed country, that travel times will be similar.

They will not.

There are many behavioural and culture factors that will affect travel times, so that instead of driving.1200 kms in one day as one can in North America, in China on limited access roadways with the same technology level one will be able to drive only 400 kms in one day.

This is necessary to accurately calculate travel times.

If one were to attempt to drive from Shanghai to Kunming, and the entire route has Autobahn like 4-lane modern roadways, one would need to assume that after 400kms you would be stopping to get a hotel room. It does not matter that the left hand lane is rated to 120kph, you won't be traveling at that speed.

Using any online mapping and trip calculators will tell you a flat out lie and delusional trip time for long distance driving trips in China. Any time will need to be doubled to get close to the reality of how long it will take.

I have done this and Chinese drivers simply do not behave as you assume.

Only flying and CRH and subways will get you about quickly. The instant you leave those networks and get onto anything with wheels, average speed can plummet to 30kph.
Well I think you assume you are the only one who had travel experience in China, many of us do and we have much difference experience than you. I don't know if you are just incompetent at planning your trip or just having bad luck, but saying you can only drive 400km a day in China on expressway is completely false. I have traveled from Nanjing to Beijing in a day by car about ten years ago, and a friend of mine did Shanghai-Dali in four days. Also if you don't know in many smaller towns there are loads of illegal taxis and mini buses and motorcycles for hire, so a large number of those last segment trips are done by those.

Of course if you do the absolutely cheapest way then that'll take you a while, but that's the same everywhere. My feeling is that in today's China, regardless regions, traveling combining HSR and public transportation (including taxi) is cheaper and faster than similar regions here in the US.
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Old June 19th, 2014, 09:45 PM   #8238
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China Hand you are talking right out of your ass. If the maximum average speed on the average expressway is 30 km per hour or max 400 km per day it would take me 5 hours to travel to the next city . In reality it takes 90 minutes or two hours by bus. Traffic conditions vary of course but under ideal conditions I can and have traveled 600 to 700 km in around 8 hours.

Bus services would not be profitable at such a low speed and why bother buying a car if a pushbike can go faster. Your observation that speeds attainable on Chinese expressways are 1/3 that on North American expressways is a generalization an absolute one.

As for your much vaulted personal experience you are not the only one living and driving around in China every day. The major issue withe expressways is the reckless driving and inevitable accidents.

Max average speed attainable on any Chinese expressway under any conditions whatsoever is 30 km per hour. 30 km per hour my ass I regularly see emergency vehicles like Highway Police cars , Ambulances even military convoys doing well in excess of that and for good reason.
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Old June 20th, 2014, 04:15 AM   #8239
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
On 1st of July, Beijing-Xiamen direct high speed train shall start. On the direction to Xiamen, its number shall be G165, it takes 12:45 and the price for the 2229 km trip is 829 yuan 5 jiao in second class, 1284 yuan first class, 2581 yuan 5 jiao business class.
New railway running map will start on July 1

New running schedules (weekday/weekend/peak) and new routes (Beijing-Xiamen HSR, Beijing-Nanning HSR, Datong-Xi'an HSR etc) will start operation on July 1 2014.

source
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 01:38 PM   #8240
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High speed train in Kunshan

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