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Old July 7th, 2014, 12:39 PM   #8301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kunming tiger View Post
What are the expected new HSR lines to open in 2014?
Lanzhou to Urumqi
Chengdu to Wuhan
ZhangJiaKou to HohHot
Hefei–Fuzhou
Jilin–Hunchun
Guangzhou-Nanning
Ganzhou–Longyan
Nanping-Sanming-Longyan
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Old July 7th, 2014, 12:53 PM   #8302
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Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
ZhangJiaKou to HohHot
Does Zhangjiakou-Hohhot high speed railway go via Datong, like the slow speed railway does?
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Old July 7th, 2014, 01:22 PM   #8303
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By definition it is, whether you agree or not.
Depending on whose definition. The EU classification, that I guess Sopomon referred to, requires 200+ km/h for upgraded track, 250+ km for new track, and lower in certain circumstances (e.g. inside cities) for rail to be "high-speed".

It makes sense within the context of that directive, but not as a general definition I would think.
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Old July 7th, 2014, 05:55 PM   #8304
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More talks 'needed on high-speed rail link'
5 July 2014
China Daily

Further negotiations on issues including geopolitics, technological standards and funding are needed for a high-speed railway China is planning between the Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region and Eastern Europe, according to experts.

The 6,000-km link will start in Xinjiang and pass through Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Iran and Turkey to Bulgaria, said Zhao Xiaogang, former chairman of China South Locomotive and Rolling Stock Co (CSR), a leading Chinese industrial manufacturer and exporter.

Zhao is also an adviser to the China Institute for Innovation and Development Strategy.

Passenger train speeds will reach 200 kph and freight trains 160 kph, Zhao told China Daily.

Investment in the line will be about $150 billion, Zhao said, adding that it could be largely finished in 2020 and fully completed by 2030.

"It can be regarded as a new Silk Road," he said.

The pace of railway construction in Xinjiang has increased significantly since September, when President Xi Jinping raised the idea of a Silk Road economic belt. He proposed reviving the ancient trade route connecting China, Central Asia and Europe.

Zhao also said China is considering a 3,000-km line from Yunnan province that would pass through Laos, Thailand and Malaysia to Singapore.

Total investment would be about $75 billion and the project would boost the GDP of China and related countries by $375 billion. The project could be largely finished in 2020 and fully completed in 2025, he said.

Premier Li Keqiang has also promoted high-speed railway technology during his many overseas visits.

During a visit to the CSR Zhuzhou Electric Locomotive Co in Hunan province on Friday, Li asked workers to ensure the quality of Chinese high-speed railways and to safeguard the reputation of equipment made in China.

"Every time I visit a foreign country, I introduce your products to its government leaders. I hope to see more of your products in future overseas trips," he said.

Ji Jialun, a railway expert at Beijing Jiaotong University, said many details are still under discussion concerning the high-speed railway planned between Xinjiang and Europe.

"A host of factors, such as geopolitics, technological issues and funding have to be considered," he said. "As far as I know, the government has begun to negotiate this project with Kazakhstan, which is willing to cooperate with us on building such a link."

China has the technological and engineering capability to link its rail network with those of its western neighbors, but negotiations still have to be held over the new line's track gauge, Ji said.

"Central Asian and Middle Eastern nations use 1,524 mm broad gauge tracks, while China adopts the standard gauge of 1,435 mm," Ji said.

"China Railway Corp hopes to persuade those countries to adopt the standard gauge for this line, otherwise train wheels will have to be changed at borders."

Zhao Lei contributed to this story.
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Old July 7th, 2014, 06:21 PM   #8305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Does Zhangjiakou-Hohhot high speed railway go via Datong, like the slow speed railway does?
I'm pretty sure this line won't open till 2017...
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Old July 7th, 2014, 09:18 PM   #8306
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
More talks 'needed on high-speed rail link'
5 July 2014
China Daily

Further negotiations on issues including geopolitics, technological standards and funding are needed for a high-speed railway China is planning between the Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region and Eastern Europe, according to experts.

The 6,000-km link will start in Xinjiang and pass through Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Iran and Turkey to Bulgaria, said Zhao Xiaogang, former chairman of China South Locomotive and Rolling Stock Co (CSR), a leading Chinese industrial manufacturer and exporter.
Why? The map depicts, for some reason, railway along the Tian-Shan mountains. What is the advantage of that route?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
The pace of railway construction in Xinjiang has increased significantly since September, when President Xi Jinping raised the idea of a Silk Road economic belt.
Which railways are currently under construction in Xinjiang, whose construction was sped up after September 2013?
Xining-Urumqi, but which others?
Korla-Golmud?
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Old July 8th, 2014, 01:12 AM   #8307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
200km/h newly built is not high speed.

Says WHO ??? The normative by the European Union to grant subsides ???



The usual mixed traffic line speed is in the range 200km/h to 250 km/h because the track and pickup cable need to acomodate for the slower freight trains. So passenger trains at 200km/h in those mixed traffic routes are considered as high speed trains everywhere ... don't try to force the EU definitions onto elsewhere.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 01:24 AM   #8308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
Depending on whose definition. The EU classification, that I guess Sopomon referred to, requires 200+ km/h for upgraded track, 250+ km for new track, and lower in certain circumstances (e.g. inside cities) for rail to be "high-speed".

It makes sense within the context of that directive, but not as a general definition I would think.
200km/h is a bit of a gray area. In reality, however, it is hi-speed rail per say. 200km/h is pretty damn fast by any definition
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Old July 8th, 2014, 01:53 AM   #8309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Says WHO ??? The normative by the European Union to grant subsides ???



The usual mixed traffic line speed is in the range 200km/h to 250 km/h because the track and pickup cable need to acomodate for the slower freight trains. So passenger trains at 200km/h in those mixed traffic routes are considered as high speed trains everywhere ... don't try to force the EU definitions onto elsewhere.
High-speed rail (HSR) is a type of passenger rail transport that operates significantly faster than the normal speed of rail traffic. Specific definitions by the European Union include 200 km/h (120 mph) for upgraded track and 250 km/h (160 mph) or faster for new track.

If we're to toss that away and say it only applies in the EU, then I will build a 10 km/h railway in my back yard and call it high speed because I'm not in the EU and those definitions do not apply.

Unless of course, you wish to define China as having a second-rate rail system, which would then allow such speeds to be called high speed

Quote:
Finally, in many countries where the performance of the conventional railway is not very high, the introduction of some trains capable of operating at 160 km/h and offering a significant level of quality - often as a first step towards a future genuinely high speed service - may already be considered as high speed.
http://www.uic.org/spip.php?article971
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Last edited by Sopomon; July 8th, 2014 at 01:58 AM.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 02:00 AM   #8310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
200km/h is a bit of a gray area. In reality, however, it is hi-speed rail per say. 200km/h is pretty damn fast by any definition

There isn't much to talk about yet but we can speculate, right?

If you think about it, the line is 350km/h in China. High speed lines in Turkey are at 250km/h standard, I think they are even planning to run them at 300km/h. So, both East and West sides of the line is faster than 200km/h.

Is there any mixed line that can accommodate higher speeds than 200km/h anyway?

Well, time will tell what is going to happen. I hope it will be standard gauge all the way.

And as the second route, I hope to see a high speed line in North through Russia. But probably, there much less intent for that since there is already a freight train running.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 02:02 AM   #8311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
High-speed rail (HSR) is a type of passenger rail transport that operates significantly faster than the normal speed of rail traffic. Specific definitions by the European Union include 200 km/h (120 mph) for upgraded track and 250 km/h (160 mph) or faster for new track.

If we're to toss that away and say it only applies in the EU, then I will build a 10 km/h railway in my back yard and call it high speed because I'm not in the EU and those definitions do not apply.

Unless of course, you wish to define China as having a second-rate rail system, which would then allow such speeds to be called high speed


http://www.uic.org/spip.php?article971

But isn't that for dedicated passenger lines? This will be mix use. Anyhow, it is what it is...
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Old July 8th, 2014, 02:05 AM   #8312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
The high speed trains travel Taiyuan to Pingyao from 31 minutes to 43.
The low speed trains take 1:21 to 2:07.

High speed trains save 50 minutes of time on train - but that 50 minutes is not enough to walk the 10 km to Pingyao. You are still better off on a low speed train.

Among new connections, Xiamen now has high speed train to Beijing (G166, 12:42, compare K308, 33:14) as well as Chongqing (D2232, 14:57, compare K336, 34:09).

There now seems to be one high speed train Chengdu-Zhengzhou (D2202, 13:30, compare 10 slow trains, 17:36 to 25:55), among the total of 9 D trains Chengdu-Wuhan. D2244 goes to Fuzhou (in 15:47), D2224 to Hangzhou (in 15:00), D628 to Shanghai (in 16:15), as does D2208 (in 14:58), D2238 to Nanchang (in 12:36), D2256 to Nanjing (in 13:15), D2260 and D368 terminate at Wuhan.

What is conspicuous for absence is any high speed train whatsoever between Chongqing and Changsha!
Excuse me but the HSR station lies INSIDE the city limits so your post is a bit misleading (or even a bit of miss information). The old station lies 400m away from the city walls ... the HSR station is 4km away ... but its all along large multi-lane avenues. I guess that BY FOOT it would still be much faster to alight at the HSR station ... 4km is just a light jog.
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Last edited by sotavento; July 8th, 2014 at 02:15 AM.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 02:15 AM   #8313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
High-speed rail (HSR) is a type of passenger rail transport that operates significantly faster than the normal speed of rail traffic. Specific definitions by the European Union include 200 km/h (120 mph) for upgraded track and 250 km/h (160 mph) or faster for new track.

If we're to toss that away and say it only applies in the EU, then I will build a 10 km/h railway in my back yard and call it high speed because I'm not in the EU and those definitions do not apply.

Unless of course, you wish to define China as having a second-rate rail system, which would then allow such speeds to be called high speed


http://www.uic.org/spip.php?article971
You are double misled here. Sees you didn't read the articles quoted above.


1- nobody spoke/wrote about the line speed ... the quoted article reported about claimed train speeds. So we could assume that they are expecting to use +200km/h capable CRH(day and night) trains on that mixed traffic route.


2- UIC usually reports only the EU standards ... no one RE.defined a high speed standard beyond the original ... wich was the shinkansen way back in 1964 at 200km/h. In fact the entire HIGH SPEED concept is preciselly based on passenger train travel at 200km/h or higher. Nothing more than that.



Intercity HSR routes (mixed traffic) in china seem to be operated at 200km/h ...it's cheaper on long/short secondary routes ... ultra long haul cross country routes don't need super high speed for passenger trains ... live with it.

off topic: EU standards came from OLD routes being upgraded to the shinkansen standard of 1964 and NEW built routes being equal or better than the italian DIRETISSIMA. nothing more than that.
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Last edited by sotavento; July 8th, 2014 at 02:21 AM.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 03:58 AM   #8314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
Capacity has nothing to do with speed. Usually a subway line has bigger passenger capacity than highspeed railway.
WRONG

Quote:
Originally Posted by flankerjun View Post
Speed and Capacity are Closely related,higher speed means higher Frequency of trains,and more important is the Efficiency of train.
AT a 1000 KM line,if you only have a train and run at 350KM/H,and 18 hours a day,there will 3 pairs of trains,but if you run 200KM/H,3 pairs means you need more trains.
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Dude, speed is an integral part of capacity calculations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Yes - you need more trains. But so what?

If you are, say, limited to 6 minute headways on your high speed railway then you can only have 10 trains per hour. Of course, you may not have these trains. But if you have, say, 1000 km line (like Beijing-Nanjing) and you have 30 trains then you are serving the 10 trains per hour and you have no space on the railway for any additional trains. Whereas, if you could shorten headways to 4 minutes if the speed were 250 km/h, then you could have 15 trains per hour. Sure, you´d need 60 trains to do so; but you can use all these 60 and still get 15 trains per hour, so more passengers than at the 350 km/h speed.
A regular METRO station would have at maximum 240m in lenght , about 12x 20m cars per trainset.

A regular HSR station has normaly 420m in lenght , about 16x 26m cars per trainset.


If you run a metro with 2min. headways , 6ppm (persons per meter,small overcrowding, 240per car) = 172.800 pax/hour/leg*

If you run a HSR with 2 min. headways , (110pax per level in a car?, 1760 single level , 3520 double deck) = 211.200 pax/hour/leg*
[yes it's extreme]

(* as in potential passenger between any given station x number of possible passengers exchanged at each station in the route)


It's rare to see METRO systems with more than 4/6/8 cars , or even with 3m wide bodies so capacity decreases immensely in most systems , headways of 4/5 minutes also are the norm ...

The full line capacity of a HSR also is almost never achieved (except Paris-Lyon-Marseille and Tokkaido?) so much conservative numbers are to be used.





ERTMS signaling/control level 2 is digitaly controlled ... level 3 is DINAMIC block control .. .as in you don't get a set number of minutes from the previous train ... and you are informed (the train) about the acceleration/braking status of the previous train ... so you get all the route up to your safe stop distance cleared ... the info is all given to you so capacity of 30tph or more in each direction (trains per hour) is achievable with L3. Or even more as the system gets streamlined as time passes.


About capacity vs. speed ... a metro system runs in a front sees tail manner so the fastest you can run a system is with line-of-sight headways in wich a train enters the station at the same time rhe previous one is still clearing the platform (usual procedure in london bridge comuter in london with a frequency of about 1tpm or even 2tpm at peak) ...
Massive central stations in HSR railways can teoretically (under ERTMS Level3) allow for trains to clear the station amost simultaneously in the same direction and proceed one after another onto the main line ... their exit (from the station) speed is dictated solely by their braking distance onto the previous train (as in the london comuter traffic) and proceed at increasingly higher speeds with the computer in the trains reading and aplying in each instant the necessary distance from the previous train ... so the REAL DECIDING factor to determine the headway is not the safe braking distance but the DELAY in wich the information from the STATUS of the 1st train can be passed onto (and processed) by the 2nd train ... and theoretically with INSTANT SPEED OF INFORMATION you could even get to the point where sucessive cars in a train would not be coupled together but instead would be computer controled to run at the exact same distance from each other.
The faster the CLEARANCE of a control block the biggest the capacity of the route ... that is why in comuter/metro transit ACCELERATION is a major factor. In HSR it's basically the same.

This is in fact what the vast majority of the ROAD/HIGHWAY auto guidance development projects are trying to achieve ... computerized automatic management of the flux of traffic.
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Last edited by sotavento; July 8th, 2014 at 04:11 AM.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 04:27 AM   #8315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
But travel time and headways are two completely different things.

2 cities 300 km apart? Say Shanghai and Nanjing.
So let´s say the trip time is 60 minutes on CRH (actually it is not quite 300 km/h average now, the best trip time is 67 minutes now...) and 5 hours by the parallel mainline. And suppose both are filled to capacity - 20 number trains each hour, and 12 G trains, each with 500 seats.

In one hour, the number trains would deliver 10 000 passengers to a distance 300 km. In the same hour, the G trains will have delivered 6000 passengers the same distance. So the number trains still have carried more passenger-km.

The difference is that the G train passengers each will have spent 1 hour sitting on the train, while number train passengers each have been there for 5 hours.
Also, at any one time there would be 12 G trains with 6000 people on the 300 km HSR line, and 100 number trains with 50 000 passengers on the main line.
Paralax error here.

In conventional train 50.000pax would SIT admiring the view during those 5 hours (actually 40.000 would still spend more ours admiring the view)

the HSR passengers would count IN ANOTHER 4 HSR as passengers , or on a BUS/TAXI, teatherm shopping mall , or even as PRODUCTIVE HOURS on their jobs ...

See the difference ??? MANPOWER Hours subvert the theory that at slower speeds capacity is better used. Of the 50.000 pax of the slower trains 30.000 would arrive at the destination while their equivalent counterparts in the HSR traisn were already on their lunch breaks. Conversely if their just returned to the origin (travel back to back 10h, 14h from the 1st to the last passengers,4h os leasure) their counterparts would have had a very productive 8h WORKING DAY(each with 1h for lunch and 3 h of leasure time).
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old July 8th, 2014, 08:14 AM   #8316
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Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
their counterparts would have had a very productive 8h WORKING DAY(each with 1h for lunch and 3 h of leisure time).
If productivity and money were the point of life.

They are not.

I enjoy HSR but sitting on a window seat of a very slow bus and watching the countryside roll by has a priceless quality that improves life that cannot and should not be measured by money or productivity or work.

It took me 90 minutes to travel 50kms when I can travel 300kms in the same time frame - but so what?
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Old July 8th, 2014, 09:52 AM   #8317
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Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Excuse me but the HSR station lies INSIDE the city limits
Excuse me, but Pingyao is not a city of any kind - not a prefecture level city and not a county level city. Pingyao is a county. And the borders of the county span 1260 square km.
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Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
so your post is a bit misleading (or even a bit of miss information). The old station lies 400m away from the city walls ... the HSR station is 4km away
I specifically asked, and big-dog stated 10 km. So which distance is correct, 10 km or 4 km?
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Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
... but its all along large multi-lane avenues.
How many of these lanes are dedicated to pedestrians and cyclists? And does Pingyao have a trolleybus or tram line between the walls and HSR station?
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Old July 8th, 2014, 02:48 PM   #8318
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Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
If we're to toss that away and say it only applies in the EU, then I will build a 10 km/h railway in my back yard and call it high speed because I'm not in the EU and those definitions do not apply.
It's not AD1900 any longer and the EU is a small part, by area, economy and population, of this planet.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 06:59 PM   #8319
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I think the distinction is most of all interesting because of technology. High speed rail normally involves a higher technical standard: no level crossings; cab signalling; regulated air pressure inside the trains, and so on.
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Old July 9th, 2014, 12:03 AM   #8320
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Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Is there any mixed line that can accommodate higher speeds than 200km/h anyway?
Offhand example is Kerava-Lahti in Finland. Maximum speed 220 km/h for passenger trains, 120 km/h for freight trains.
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